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welcome to christ the center your weekly

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conversation of reformed theology this

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is episode number 666

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my name is camden busey i'm uh

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here at the reform forum studio in

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gray's lake illinois

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delighted to be back today for a fun

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conversation an important one

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i'm sure many of our listeners many of

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you are going to be interested in this

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subject

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and have some familiarity with it even

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personally but to speak uh on the

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subject we have with us for the very

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first time

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on the program reverend michael glotto

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who is the associate professor of

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pastoral theology as well as the dean of

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the chapel

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at reformed theological seminary in

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orlando welcome to the program mike it's

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good to see you

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thank you camden it's great to be with

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you i love

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uh love the the not just the title but

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the

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but the focus of christ the center uh uh

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i think we have probably a lot of

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theological relatives in common

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yeah not just uh systematic but probably

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biblical theological too so it's a

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pleasure to be here absolutely

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oh it's our pleasure we're delighted to

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meet you kind of in this way

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this is the pandemic normal way to meet

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now pretty

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soon uh and uh we're happy today to be

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opening up uh a new ish book i've had it

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for a little while a pre-pub copy i

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don't know um

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exactly when it was published to the day

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but we're taking a look at a chapter

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from

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the new book covenant theology biblical

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theological and historical perspectives

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which is published by crossway edited by

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guy prentice waters nicholas reed and

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john meathers we're very thankful for

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this book

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it's tremendous as an enormous amount of

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contributors

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all folks you know either professors of

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i believe or somehow they're in tied to

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reformed theological seminary in its uh

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its networks uh but uh our guest today

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mike

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glotto has written a chapter titled just

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simply dispensationalism

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so we were joking beforehand this is

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entirely unintentional but in the lord's

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providence he saw

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fit to have episodes 666 on

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dispensationalism

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and uh we're going to look not just at

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the system

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of doctrine known as dispensationalism

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but looking also at its history and

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development

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i think to me that's that's fascinating

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there's so much there that i would like

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to

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know more about and this is what got me

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so excited about this particular chapter

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learning

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not just what dispensational is but its

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context in american

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history also its interaction with

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american presbyterianism if i'm not

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mistaken started in presbyterianism

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and then how that has been developing

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over the years into different

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stages and variations all the way up to

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christian zionism and even today with

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various new covenant theologies and and

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what we might say for you know

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progressive covenantalism and things of

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that sort so if you're interested in

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topics like this pick up a copy of the

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book you will not be disappointed i'm

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i'm

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working on scheduling interviews with a

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lot of contributors

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there are many many excellent chapters

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and i just haven't even

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been able to read a third of them yet

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but uh

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mike why don't you tell me a little bit

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about your work down at rts

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and particularly uh how you

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you came to contribute this particular

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chapter to this wonderful book

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uh glad to camden uh i guess

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one way of starting is by saying this is

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the subject on which i

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probably didn't want to become any kind

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of

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authority congratulations

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and you know you know you know because

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you're a pastor but

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sometimes the we don't get to choose

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what we do because we serve the needs of

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the church

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that's sort of my original trajectory

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uh when i was a seminary student

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somebody referred to francis schaefer is

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a prophetic generalist

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and i said that sounds like a good job

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description i think i'll do that

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and and although my original training

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uh is in old testament

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i very soon became involved in

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teaching preaching i spent 10 years

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at the seminary level teaching gospels

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as well

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and so even though now i'm primarily

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pastoral theology and preaching

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you know i've come through old testament

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and new testament and hermeneutics

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which was the focus of my study at

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westminster

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and so there are a lot of roads that

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meet in not only my background

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but there are a lot of roads that meet

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in the demands of pastoral work

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and i've been one of those academicians

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who

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tend to stand more at the intersections

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of things than

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being a specialist so that's part of it

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i guess being a somewhat qualified

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because dispensational involves it

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involves hermeneutical issues it

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involves

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biblical theological issues involves

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uh sociological issues indeed yeah

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um and uh

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in thinking about talking to you i

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actually remembered

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conversation in back in the 90s i was

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teaching a class in the pentateuch i

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think it was

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and progressive dispensationalism had

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come along

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and a lot of people in the

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dispensational tradition were finding

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that a more

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compelling explanation of how to read

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the bible and i said to my class i said

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you know uh we're gonna talk about

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dispensationalism but

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you have to realize that it's the

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classic or traditional dispensationalism

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is

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rapidly losing

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interest in the academic community and

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one very

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thoughtful and polite middle-aged

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student raised her hand and she said

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but it's still what everyone in churches

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believes

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and i said that's that's right that's

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exactly right that

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uh no matter if on the scholarly level

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there are questions being raised

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modifications being made people in the

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pew

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um take a long time to catch up with

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that

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and here we are 25 years later

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and some of these related issues are

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actually

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at play in the newspapers in terms of

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global affairs and things so

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when the project of the book on covenant

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theology was being put together

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i was asked if i would contribute a

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chapter

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because probably of a number of these

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factors old testament new testament

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hermeneutics

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a lot of pastoral and ecclesiastical

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work

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i don't think i don't think it was

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because they knew

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i had gone forward at a baptist revival

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to the

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sound of larry norman's song i wish we'd

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all been ready

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[Laughter]

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did you ever hear that song as a kid no

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i don't think so

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definitely not a church classic 1970s

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life was filled with guns and wars and

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everyone got trampled on the floor

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i wish we'd all been ready

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then there's a chorus two men walking on

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a hill one disappears and one left

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standing still

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i wish we'd all been ready yeah there's

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no time

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to change your mind the lord has come

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and you've been left behind

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that was i was a covenant child baptized

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as an infant and

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i should have just stuck with that but

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anyway i went forward

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at a uh at a youth revival to the sound

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of that song

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now i mentioned that um because

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i do want to make clear and i do make

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that clear in the article

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that we have a lot in common with uh

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dispensationalists and we should be

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thankful

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for ways in which uh dispensationalists

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and covenant

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theologians have stood together have you

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know the battle for the bible

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uh the upholding of the historic gospel

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uh the necessity of personal faith and

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repentance

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uh for salvation there's so many so many

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things that uh we need to make sure

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people understand that we're

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appreciative of

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uh even even as we're kind of launching

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on a little bit of a critique here

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and even in my college years or the para

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church ministry everybody's heard of

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that

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also at that time at least was primarily

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a dispensational brand

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uh and but yet i mean that that ministry

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had a

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pretty helpful impact in my life in

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terms of helping me be a disciple of

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christ so

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uh so my

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i don't know if ligand duncan uh whoever

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decided who wrote which chapters knew

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that i had

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come to faith through a rapture song but

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that just

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adds to my vitae on this subject i like

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it yeah

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we all need a new heading there uh you

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know

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some sort of uh miscellaneous or

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whatever i

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i it's interesting to hear you you speak

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we've been chatting uh the listeners who

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know

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uh even before we hit the record button

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about some

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points of biographical intersection in

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illinois and uh

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particularly down in southern illinois

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as as mike

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went to university of illinois which is

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not exactly southern illinois but um

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it's

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it's further south in chicago and people

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from chicago think it is

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and people uh people down south you know

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wish chicago was its own state

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and illinois might would probably be

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better off if it was

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uh such as life uh here in in illinois

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the

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number 50 state in the union um but

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you know there's a lot of intriguing

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things going on i mean i i went to

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bradley university which is

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in peoria illinois uh central-ish

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illinois but still

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north of the capital uh springfield and

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there uh you know i attended um

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00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,600
a a baptist church it was it was very

289
00:10:14,959 --> 00:10:17,839
much uh

290
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,800
more in the macarthur vein of things

291
00:10:17,839 --> 00:10:20,800
many of the

292
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,079
professors and the professors some

293
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,800
professors

294
00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:26,560
many of the the pastors were graduates

295
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,200
from the master seminary one was from

296
00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:29,920
dallas

297
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,560
uh so you get a sense of the feel there

298
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,360
but they were

299
00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:35,279
dispensationalists but yet absolutely

300
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,480
committed to the inerrancy of scripture

301
00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:38,880
to expository

302
00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,600
preaching in a grammatical historical

303
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,760
vein

304
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,279
but yet they were all five except one

305
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,360
all five point calvinists and the one

306
00:10:43,279 --> 00:10:49,279
was the dallas guy who was more

307
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:52,399
four-ish you know calvinist so

308
00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:54,240
i i cut my teeth there really i grew up

309
00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:57,360
in the mainline presbyterian church

310
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,959
a conservative one uh but

311
00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,880
you know that that was calvinist and

312
00:10:58,959 --> 00:11:01,839
held to held to the inerrancy of

313
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,640
scripture as well

314
00:11:01,839 --> 00:11:05,519
a small country church but when i got to

315
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,360
college

316
00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:09,279
you know i made a lot of friends in the

317
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,120
in the campus ministry as well

318
00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:12,959
and started to hear all sorts of ideas

319
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,120
about things i'd never heard of before

320
00:11:12,959 --> 00:11:18,079
you know i had not read

321
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,399
uh you know the late great planet earth

322
00:11:18,079 --> 00:11:20,959
and

323
00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:21,680
i think the left behind series was just

324
00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:23,760
coming

325
00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:26,000
on the scene or just becoming popular at

326
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:29,279
least hadn't reached my orbit yet

327
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,880
and then all of a sudden you know it i'm

328
00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:32,399
i'm i'm being asked well don't you know

329
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,160
about the rapture don't you know about

330
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:35,680
the millennial kingdom and and all this

331
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,839
ordering of things that i

332
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:39,279
i completely foreign to me it's like a

333
00:11:37,839 --> 00:11:42,160
different religion

334
00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:43,920
and not i'm not saying it is a different

335
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,920
religion but you get my point it was so

336
00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,959
foreign to me that i felt like

337
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,600
i felt like what did i i was raised in

338
00:11:48,959 --> 00:11:51,920
the church and

339
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,120
spent my whole life at the church uh and

340
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,560
all of a sudden i never

341
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,880
heard about these things was such a

342
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:58,480
shock i'm wondering did you feel the

343
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,360
same way when you encountered these

344
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,279
things

345
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:06,639
the popularization that happened around

346
00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:09,600
mid early 70s was

347
00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:10,000
and i don't know the specific catalyst

348
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,959
for all

349
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,440
that but uh my high school sunday school

350
00:12:12,959 --> 00:12:15,600
class

351
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,279
in the church i grew up in that at least

352
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,560
we spent two years

353
00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:20,560
with the teacher talking about the late

354
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:23,839
great planet earth really

355
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:25,519
uh now it was a mainline church where

356
00:12:23,839 --> 00:12:27,200
you know expos story study the bible

357
00:12:25,519 --> 00:12:29,200
inductive study of the bible wasn't

358
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,720
the preferred way of reading the bible

359
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,440
but yeah

360
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,440
but um

361
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,040
one one thing i mentioned in the article

362
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,519
is

363
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,320
we have to pay attention to sociological

364
00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:44,800
factors

365
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:48,399
often when we look at these especially

366
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,399
these eschatological shifts

367
00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:55,440
norm cohen wrote this uh work on

368
00:12:52,959 --> 00:12:56,240
in uh you can help me with the title

369
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,519
it's

370
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:02,399
footnote in in the in the article um

371
00:12:59,519 --> 00:13:04,959
about the whole millennial phenomenon as

372
00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:06,639
a sociological phenomenon

373
00:13:04,959 --> 00:13:09,200
and this is certainly true of the

374
00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:11,760
origins of dispensationalism

375
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:14,000
uh but i would want to put my mind in

376
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:16,320
terms of this popularization

377
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,920
in the 70s i want to try to put my

378
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,959
finger on some things you know

379
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:23,279
social upheaval uncertainty certainly

380
00:13:20,959 --> 00:13:26,399
coming out of the 60s and the protest

381
00:13:23,279 --> 00:13:29,760
movements and then you had

382
00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:31,160
the american malaise where things just

383
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,639
felt bad you had

384
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:37,760
hyperinflation um

385
00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:41,440
and then perhaps too just the the

386
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:44,800
waning voice of mainstream

387
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:48,079
christianity i'm talking about mainline

388
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,600
where the preaching of the bible wasn't

389
00:13:48,079 --> 00:13:52,160
i mean once you deconstruct the bible

390
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,959
with critical methodologies you know

391
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:57,279
what do you say on a sunday morning

392
00:13:54,959 --> 00:13:58,800
and the churches that were vital and

393
00:13:57,279 --> 00:14:03,519
felt a sense of urgency

394
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,519
and so forth you know those tend to be

395
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:11,519
bible focused and by that time

396
00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:12,399
so many good bible-focused churches have

397
00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:14,800
been

398
00:14:12,399 --> 00:14:17,839
depending on say dallas seminary and

399
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:21,680
other similar institutions

400
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:21,680
i've i've heard a story

401
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,920
that i think was fairly typical it was

402
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,000
told to me as a typical story

403
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,320
there's a very well-known presbyterian

404
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,399
church in the east it's now pca but back

405
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,199
then it was still mainline

406
00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:37,199
and the pastor was a sort of a prince of

407
00:14:35,199 --> 00:14:40,399
pulpiteers he was a very notable

408
00:14:37,199 --> 00:14:40,399
expository preacher

409
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,079
and the church was in the united

410
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,600
presbyterian church

411
00:14:44,079 --> 00:14:49,199
and he would he would tell his young men

412
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,720
who wanted to go to seminary who were

413
00:14:49,199 --> 00:14:53,519
going to the ministry

414
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,000
go to princeton just get your degree

415
00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:55,920
just

416
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,680
don't argue with anybody and i'll make

417
00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,720
sure you have a church when you get out

418
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,199
so put up with the liberal theology it's

419
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,639
just an

420
00:15:01,199 --> 00:15:06,000
expedience that same pastor one year

421
00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:07,279
when he went to speak at a bible

422
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,959
conference when he learned there was an

423
00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:11,199
amillennial speaker

424
00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:12,000
on the on the agenda he left the

425
00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:15,440
conference it wouldn't

426
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:19,440
speak wow so

427
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:21,199
um so within the main within the

428
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,720
northern prison church in particular at

429
00:15:21,199 --> 00:15:23,519
that time there's a certain pragmatism

430
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,320
toward

431
00:15:23,519 --> 00:15:28,240
just getting along with the you know

432
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,959
tolerating the liberalism we'll get our

433
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,639
bible

434
00:15:28,959 --> 00:15:33,120
from the bible conferences we'll get our

435
00:15:30,639 --> 00:15:36,160
bible from dallas seminary we'll

436
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:38,160
you know we'll depend up upon

437
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,519
those conservative institutions and

438
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,000
perhaps there was a little bit of a

439
00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:43,839
hesitation toward to depend upon the

440
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,519
conservative reformed institutions

441
00:15:43,839 --> 00:15:48,000
because of the history of

442
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:49,040
tensions you know with the the

443
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,600
presbyterian

444
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,880
uh splinters of the of the 20th century

445
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,040
so

446
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,040
and that's what i'm saying the the the

447
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,279
the bible conference movement the

448
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,120
in in in the in the dispensational

449
00:15:59,279 --> 00:16:03,360
institutions became

450
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,600
the training ground for a lot of in this

451
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,720
case northern presbyterians

452
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:12,560
and so that would that would

453
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:14,480
um uh perhaps explain

454
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,839
some of your experience there in peoria

455
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,880
yeah yeah

456
00:16:15,839 --> 00:16:22,720
yeah one thing was the local pca church

457
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:26,199
uh near where i went to to uh college

458
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:28,560
was you know effort had a history of

459
00:16:26,199 --> 00:16:30,320
dispensationalism and used to invite

460
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,600
various people to come for these

461
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,560
prophecy conferences

462
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,320
bruce dunn was the pastor this is all

463
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,279
prior to my time but the back in the

464
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,560
history

465
00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:42,079
looking back i think in the 60s and 70s

466
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,920
and then they would invite i think even

467
00:16:42,079 --> 00:16:44,160
dwight pentecost and others would come

468
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,120
and

469
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,639
and and speak on on bible prophecy but

470
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,320
this is all within the presbyterian

471
00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:53,680
church in america

472
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,639
uh you know post uh what is it 73 if i'm

473
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,199
not mistaken

474
00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:59,519
yeah yes but that but that that always

475
00:16:57,199 --> 00:17:01,279
perplexed me so to read your article

476
00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:02,639
and to to start to put some of these

477
00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:04,400
pieces together

478
00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:06,640
is really helpful to me to understand

479
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,799
historically and sociologically

480
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,720
how some of these things happen i think

481
00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:12,000
i think i think there's a good thesis to

482
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,160
be done here

483
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,079
uh if there's the interest level but at

484
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,600
least i was able to figure out

485
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,280
some of this connection between

486
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,400
southeastern michigan detroit

487
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,520
essentially

488
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:27,760
and st louis uh with ingles and darby

489
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,640
and then ultimately in st louis you know

490
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,559
schofield

491
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:34,400
launches out of there um of course

492
00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:37,760
interestingly enough peoria is you know

493
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:41,039
halfway halfway between

494
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:44,799
and my ordination credentials i

495
00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:46,640
i have an opc friend by the way um

496
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:48,720
you know the way people refer to their

497
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,400
minority friend i have an rpc friend

498
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,080
uh some of my best friends are opc

499
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,799
people but uh

500
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,320
i'm in the epc uh sort of there's a

501
00:17:54,799 --> 00:18:01,440
whole story there but

502
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:05,200
um the epc started in 80 81

503
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,799
and i definitely remember encountering

504
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,320
churches from the northern

505
00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:12,160
presbyterian church that were distinctly

506
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,200
dispensational they mean

507
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,880
good solid in terms of the

508
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,120
proclaiming christ and belief in the

509
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:22,080
inerrancy of scripture and so forth but

510
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,480
i realized there was a whole family out

511
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,760
there

512
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,919
now what i didn't tie in and uh

513
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,960
i don't have the background to do it at

514
00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:30,640
this point but

515
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,960
you know there were certain sympathies

516
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,160
even as the rpces

517
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,559
the reformed presbyterian church

518
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:40,400
evangelical synod

519
00:18:36,559 --> 00:18:43,679
uh with its

520
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,679
insistence on pre-millennialism

521
00:18:43,679 --> 00:18:48,080
there's certain affinities to

522
00:18:45,679 --> 00:18:52,640
dispensationalism within that movement

523
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:54,480
too and when the rpces

524
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,080
eventually makes its way into the merger

525
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,520
with the pca

526
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:02,559
uh all that's to say

527
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,799
even within the pca perhaps at least in

528
00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:05,919
a number of years ago you had people who

529
00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:10,880
more naturally

530
00:19:05,919 --> 00:19:13,280
thought in somewhat dispensational ways

531
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,360
my colleague john meather actually has

532
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:19,600
written a piece on this

533
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:22,400
uh it's he's been challenged by my

534
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:25,440
my wonderful history professor will

535
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,039
barker on that point but

536
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,039
but you certainly have like in the bible

537
00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:31,280
presbyterian church even today

538
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:33,600
what i would say is clearly identifiable

539
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:36,880
as dispensationalism

540
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,400
uh kissinger's kissinger's survey of the

541
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,559
history of interpretation of the sermon

542
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,480
on the mount it's a scholarly work

543
00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:44,000
uh on the history of interpreting the

544
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,760
sermon on the mount

545
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,640
the chapter exemplifying

546
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,200
dispensationalism his chapter on

547
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,200
dispensationalism

548
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,039
uses donald gray barnhouse as its

549
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,960
exemplar wow

550
00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:56,480
and barnhouse was the pastor of the 10th

551
00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:00,559
creditor in church

552
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:03,679
philadelphia you know prior to dr boyce

553
00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:05,200
so that i remember uh when i ran into

554
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:07,280
that chapter

555
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,280
thinking wow there there clearly is a

556
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,559
dispensational

557
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:14,559
thread within northern presbyterianism

558
00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:16,000
and by the way a great place in the

559
00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:17,200
bible to go to sort out

560
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,039
whether you are or not a

561
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,640
dispensationalism is i think sermon on

562
00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:22,960
the mount is a good place to go

563
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,919
sure there are other places as well but

564
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,200
is that an ethic

565
00:20:23,919 --> 00:20:29,840
for the people of god today is it an

566
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,880
ethic for a future millennial kingdom

567
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,640
um uh when

568
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,159
when the church is raptured out of the

569
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,919
world

570
00:20:36,159 --> 00:20:39,679
yeah i think it'd be useful just to

571
00:20:37,919 --> 00:20:40,640
spend a moment to talk a little bit

572
00:20:39,679 --> 00:20:43,440
about some of that

573
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,760
early history but even back up before

574
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,200
that

575
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,400
we don't need to get into all the nuts

576
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,080
and bolts of the system of

577
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,440
dispensationalism i would encourage

578
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,520
people to take a look at uh one of our

579
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:56,159
other programs here on reform forum

580
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:59,120
uh theology simply profounded a whole

581
00:20:56,159 --> 00:21:02,159
series on dispensationalism rob mckenzie

582
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:04,159
our friend uh walked through that in in

583
00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:05,760
a lot of its details so many many hours

584
00:21:04,159 --> 00:21:07,200
of material there if you'd like to

585
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,720
follow up and i'll include a link to

586
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,320
that in the episode description for

587
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,799
everyone listening

588
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,480
but it would be worth at least you know

589
00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:14,960
asking the question about the word

590
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,159
itself

591
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,919
dispensation or dispensationalism that's

592
00:21:18,159 --> 00:21:20,880
become kind of the touchstone for this

593
00:21:19,919 --> 00:21:22,480
system but it's

594
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,559
certainly not a word that's foreign to

595
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:28,400
us presbyterians

596
00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:31,600
in our confession yeah uh it's uh

597
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,520
if somebody doesn't read the confession

598
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,679
before they become reformed or as they

599
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,080
become reformed and then they

600
00:21:35,679 --> 00:21:39,520
they start to read through and they uh

601
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:43,039
they find that the confession

602
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:45,840
uses that very word uh in chapter seven

603
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:46,320
paragraph six of the western confession

604
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,080
like

605
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:54,400
uh it can be a bit of a crisis so

606
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,400
uh and i address that in the article um

607
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,360
historically christians have agreed that

608
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,480
there are

609
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,120
periods in which i identify or distinct

610
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,039
periods

611
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:11,280
in which god administers his covenants

612
00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:14,320
if you will and that there are changes

613
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:16,400
that take place between those epochs

614
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,760
all progressing toward what paul says in

615
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,880
galatians 4 5

616
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:23,919
is the fullness of time and he says

617
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,559
elsewhere at the at the right time

618
00:22:23,919 --> 00:22:28,000
and so the term itself is not not

619
00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:29,840
necessarily revealing and i

620
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,159
by the way in terms of resources vern

621
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,960
poitras book understanding dispensation

622
00:22:32,159 --> 00:22:34,960
is

623
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,080
it's just a wonderful book on on the

624
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,960
whole subject of

625
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,880
of dispensationalism but he goes into

626
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,039
this um

627
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,640
as does palmer robertson and his book

628
00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:47,240
christ the covenants

629
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,400
uh it's not the fact that there are

630
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,919
dispensations

631
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:55,000
it's uh what what what we

632
00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:57,840
mean when we say dispensations so a

633
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,240
dispensationalist sees a fundamental

634
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,799
degree of discontinuity between these

635
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:06,720
periods of history

636
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:10,000
and in each period of history god

637
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:12,320
deals with his people in a different way

638
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,760
and he deals with them based on

639
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,799
revelation

640
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,120
specific to that period of history

641
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:20,320
so every period every dispensation

642
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:23,440
involves

643
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:26,720
a new offer of god

644
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,760
uh in order to to in as to how to relate

645
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,840
to him

646
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,280
and then a probation if you will of

647
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,080
mankind

648
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,039
and then inevitably mankind whether it's

649
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,799
in the days of

650
00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:42,080
adam it's in the days of noah moses

651
00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:45,679
abraham ultimately fail

652
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,720
until a future time in which god will

653
00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:49,279
sovereignly

654
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,080
administer his kingdom and overcome

655
00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:55,360
people's failings

656
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:59,320
but each period has its own

657
00:23:55,360 --> 00:24:00,960
revelation and on that basis

658
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,120
dispensationalists

659
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,559
and we're talking about traditional

660
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,520
dispensationalists not the other

661
00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:09,039
movements which you've

662
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,679
uh needed to here uh dispensationalists

663
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:12,640
have

664
00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:14,000
have traditionally seen that um the the

665
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,640
the period that we're now

666
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:22,480
in the church age was unanticipated

667
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:24,640
and not anticipated in the old testament

668
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,000
and it is the new revelation that goes

669
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,400
with our period

670
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,400
of history uh what is

671
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:37,919
most that what is uh fairly unique in

672
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,360
in the dispensational scheme at

673
00:24:37,919 --> 00:24:43,600
the moment of christ come coming is that

674
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:43,600
um

675
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:49,279
there's a delay of what god would have

676
00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:51,919
done

677
00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:53,279
had the jewish nation accepted jesus as

678
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:57,200
messiah

679
00:24:53,279 --> 00:25:00,640
and so that delay is going to be the

680
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,960
until the future kingdom happens through

681
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,080
the second coming of jesus so we're in

682
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,400
this

683
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,760
previously undisclosed period of time

684
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,640
which is how they explain the word

685
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,279
mystery

686
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,240
say is it paul uses it in ephesians i

687
00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:14,640
don't think that's the

688
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,080
best way to understand that term they

689
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,279
say it was something hidden

690
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:22,559
but now it's been revealed because

691
00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:23,279
israel rejected jesus so everything

692
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:27,360
hinges

693
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:28,320
upon the rejection of jesus and this is

694
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,080
i know we're not getting into

695
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,440
hermeneutics yet but to me this presents

696
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,679
a

697
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,760
tremendous hermeneutical leap because

698
00:25:33,679 --> 00:25:38,320
you have the old testament meaning

699
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:41,360
something that it didn't mean

700
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:44,720
until israel rejected jesus and that's

701
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:46,159
that's that runs directly contrary to

702
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,440
how the new testament writers treat the

703
00:25:46,159 --> 00:25:49,440
old testament

704
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,120
yeah when they talk about the it's

705
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,760
fuller sense it's

706
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:55,200
it senses plenty or that the

707
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,159
significance of scripture seen in the

708
00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,039
full light of jesus

709
00:25:58,159 --> 00:26:01,440
life death burial and resurrection uh

710
00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:03,600
it's

711
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,520
it's what shines the light back on the

712
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,240
full meaning of the old testament

713
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,080
and so dispensationalism says you know

714
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,919
it would not have meant those things had

715
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:16,320
israel not rejected jesus

716
00:26:11,919 --> 00:26:18,080
yeah it's definitely contrary to what

717
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,159
you know what we understand in reform

718
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,240
biblical theology especially with

719
00:26:20,159 --> 00:26:25,039
one of our favorites here gerhardis boss

720
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,760
this organic progressive unfolding and

721
00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:28,000
development

722
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,159
of the old testament into the new we

723
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,039
don't see those as a sharp distinction

724
00:26:30,159 --> 00:26:34,000
clearly their

725
00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:35,279
god is is is revealing himself

726
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,200
progressively

727
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:38,320
and in different ages and different

728
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,240
times and it's important

729
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,840
not only to understand what god has said

730
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,600
but when and to whom and

731
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,159
how uh but what we find in

732
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,360
dispensationalism is

733
00:26:46,159 --> 00:26:52,880
is uh this particular type of

734
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:55,360
hermeneutic we can discuss but also

735
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,720
an a priori distinction between israel

736
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:58,480
and the church

737
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,840
which is right in line with with what

738
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,640
you're speaking of there

739
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,080
it it just given the categories that are

740
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,559
adopted in advance

741
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,480
the the old testament simply cannot mean

742
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:10,880
what the reformed church

743
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,080
understands it to mean yeah or what the

744
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,679
apostles

745
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,159
seem to be treating it as or the book of

746
00:27:13,679 --> 00:27:17,520
hebrews for example

747
00:27:16,159 --> 00:27:19,679
you know and and it's funny you

748
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,399
mentioned that camden because

749
00:27:19,679 --> 00:27:25,440
the summer before i started seminary i

750
00:27:22,399 --> 00:27:28,399
was a bible study was dropped in my lap

751
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,320
to lead at the at the church where i was

752
00:27:28,399 --> 00:27:32,159
a member and a deacon

753
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,159
and for some reason i chose the book of

754
00:27:32,159 --> 00:27:37,760
hebrews there you go

755
00:27:34,159 --> 00:27:39,360
um and for me when i started learning

756
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,799
about reformed theology

757
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:44,480
in general i had been taught

758
00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:46,559
we believe what the bible teaches and so

759
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,399
when i

760
00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:50,080
calvinism reformed theology wasn't that

761
00:27:48,399 --> 00:27:53,200
hard for me because

762
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,720
it seemed to be pretty obvious and

763
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,159
reading through the book of hebrews it

764
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,799
seemed to be pretty obvious that the

765
00:27:56,159 --> 00:28:02,159
whole old testament was about jesus

766
00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:03,919
and in that kind of simple way at that

767
00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:06,960
time that i understood it

768
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:08,720
but uh what you what you you you said ah

769
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,880
priori and i think that's

770
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,080
very important to understand in the

771
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,159
beginning of the article

772
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,480
i pick up on something that both

773
00:28:14,159 --> 00:28:20,240
robertson and poytheist poythers

774
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:22,000
mentioned and um particularly poetry's

775
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,080
if you're trying to talk to somebody

776
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,480
about dispensationalism you're trading

777
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,320
views respectfully and terribly sure

778
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,399
yeah

779
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:35,120
that you can often feel like you're

780
00:28:32,399 --> 00:28:35,520
picking at bricks on a wall but there's

781
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,720
no

782
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:42,960
cracks developing

783
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:46,640
and dispensationalism is a

784
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:50,159
very tightly developed system

785
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,640
that if you it's like is it jenga

786
00:28:50,159 --> 00:28:53,919
will you pull out exactly right yeah

787
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,240
yeah so

788
00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:58,000
you can pull out a lot of pieces but it

789
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,960
doesn't destabilize the system

790
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,240
because it's so tightly interrelated and

791
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,120
um

792
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,240
and and but but ultimately it is if you

793
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,480
really

794
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,320
continue to examine it everything

795
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,159
depends upon this

796
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,360
robertson used the word existential

797
00:29:12,159 --> 00:29:16,799
commitment

798
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,320
uh this ah priori that

799
00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:21,520
israel and the church are two different

800
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:25,200
entities that god

801
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:27,360
continues a plan for each and

802
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,120
we read the whole bible from that

803
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,200
perspective

804
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,559
and uh

805
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,720
[Music]

806
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:37,120
if you read the bible without that a

807
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:40,960
priori

808
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:44,320
um you don't you don't see that

809
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,120
you know um you re you alluded to voss

810
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,039
and we all

811
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,480
probably familiar with vos's analogy of

812
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:51,039
the acorn

813
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,919
you know from acorn to oak tree if you

814
00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:54,960
do a

815
00:29:51,919 --> 00:29:57,919
23andme test is that the right

816
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,600
that works you know if you do a 23andme

817
00:29:57,919 --> 00:30:00,320
on the oak tree and the acorn it's going

818
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,520
to come back

819
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:10,240
as being identical right

820
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:12,000
and so revelation is organic the same

821
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,360
story that begins

822
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,120
not just in genesis uh three

823
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,960
because we know that eschatology

824
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,399
precedes zoterology

825
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:25,600
speaking my language anyway

826
00:30:22,399 --> 00:30:28,559
the story that begins in genesis 1 even

827
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,840
uh is the same story that finds its

828
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:33,200
realization

829
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,360
at conclusion at the end of revelation

830
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,520
so there's the organic character of

831
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,640
scripture now

832
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,279
what's hard having a conversation with

833
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,480
someone

834
00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:51,279
is dispensationalism

835
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:54,320
really rests heavily on proof texts

836
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:57,440
and while covenant theology

837
00:30:54,320 --> 00:31:00,799
has its proof texts it's also an

838
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,600
organic picture so

839
00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:04,399
you can't you don't get covenant

840
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,799
theology

841
00:31:04,399 --> 00:31:08,159
by just looking at the pixels you get

842
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:11,200
covenant theology

843
00:31:08,159 --> 00:31:12,960
by looking at the portrait right and

844
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,840
that's not adding something on because

845
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,799
the pixels make the portrait indeed

846
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,559
but it's a and vos you'll know the

847
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:23,360
section i'm talking about in the very

848
00:31:20,559 --> 00:31:24,880
beginning he he says the advantage of

849
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,840
this kind of redemptive historical

850
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,120
reading of the bible

851
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:32,159
it it it frees us from an atomistic

852
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:35,200
approach to interpretation

853
00:31:32,159 --> 00:31:37,279
so that interpretation is not simply the

854
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,000
addition of word meanings into a total

855
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:41,200
meaning but

856
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,600
rather interpretation is the bible's a

857
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,799
book of literature it's not it's not a

858
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,519
it's not

859
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:48,240
it's not the human genome you know it's

860
00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:52,799
not the

861
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,799
periodic table and um

862
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,600
honestly you know different people their

863
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,360
brains work different ways

864
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,080
and and especially in a and the modern

865
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,080
age

866
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,480
probably was necessary to give birth to

867
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,880
dispensationalism because of the

868
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,559
of the pitch toward more scientific

869
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,399
atomistic you know

870
00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:18,640
empiricistic kind of thinking um

871
00:32:14,399 --> 00:32:20,559
so um just don't

872
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,760
don't for your listeners don't get

873
00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:23,279
frustrated if you're having a

874
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,480
conversation with a dispensational

875
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:26,080
brother or sister

876
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,480
you find out you're not making much

877
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,159
headway right uh

878
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:35,039
because the system does cohere

879
00:32:32,159 --> 00:32:36,399
and it takes a while to and by the way

880
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:38,000
if you're if you have dispensational

881
00:32:36,399 --> 00:32:38,480
friends listening here we love you so

882
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,159
i'm

883
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,240
trying to deconstruct you but i guess we

884
00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:44,880
kind of are

885
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880
but um

886
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,919
it does tightly cohere and uh and the

887
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,120
reformed approach to the the redemptive

888
00:32:51,919 --> 00:32:56,399
historical approach is a more

889
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,720
organic way of reading the bible i had a

890
00:32:56,399 --> 00:33:00,559
long-suffering pastor those three four

891
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,000
years when uh i was attending this

892
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:03,519
baptist church and he would

893
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,679
meet with me for breakfast every

894
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:08,240
wednesday morning

895
00:33:05,679 --> 00:33:09,679
and i'm so indebted to him and thankful

896
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,760
for that but he was coming from a

897
00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:14,640
dispensational perspective and i was

898
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,640
rustling through this so i'm i'm truly

899
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,399
amazed that he had breakfast with me so

900
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,320
frequently because i must have been just

901
00:33:18,399 --> 00:33:21,919
terribly precocious and just

902
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,679
hammering on all these issues because i

903
00:33:21,919 --> 00:33:25,200
struggled with him i just did i didn't

904
00:33:23,679 --> 00:33:26,559
see it and we'd go back and forth and

905
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,120
back and forth

906
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:30,080
but i felt that very same thing you know

907
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,640
you could you could go

908
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,080
text by text and there are there are

909
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,000
answers retorts

910
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:39,519
other texts it it does hold together on

911
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,640
its own terms

912
00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:45,200
you have to get deeper to these these

913
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,720
foundations to talk hermeneutics to talk

914
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,559
ecclesiology

915
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,720
one thing that was helpful for me in our

916
00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:52,080
conversation eventually

917
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,159
and there never was a real good answer

918
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,519
to this but it's in romans 11 which

919
00:33:54,159 --> 00:33:56,799
talked about

920
00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:59,279
uh the natural branches and the

921
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:01,519
unnatural branches but at the end of the

922
00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:03,679
day how many trees are in this metaphor

923
00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:06,080
there's only one tree and the root of it

924
00:34:03,679 --> 00:34:08,480
is christ so the question is how

925
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,240
how we are connected to one another and

926
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,960
this that raises a whole host of other

927
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:13,040
issues in the

928
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,639
than the typical response about

929
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,760
replacement theology where you're

930
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,919
getting away or you

931
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,839
you hate israel you hate the jews

932
00:34:17,919 --> 00:34:21,839
because you replace them with gentiles

933
00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:24,480
which are unfair conversations but

934
00:34:21,839 --> 00:34:26,240
at the end of the day i i love my you

935
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,839
know my dispensational brothers and

936
00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:30,320
sisters

937
00:34:27,839 --> 00:34:32,000
and and i admire them because of their

938
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,800
unwavering commitment to

939
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,560
god's word and we can have differences

940
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,879
on how to interpret that and some of

941
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,639
them very significant differences

942
00:34:38,879 --> 00:34:42,000
but i'm thankful for the commitment to

943
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,280
scripture and if we can

944
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,440
if we can just if that's our problem

945
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:49,599
we can stand on the same foundation that

946
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,520
this is god's inerrant infallible word

947
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:53,040
and what he has said is the case

948
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,200
and we need to live according to it

949
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,639
let's you know i'll take that any day

950
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,960
because the good dispensationalists will

951
00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:02,079
say show me from the bible amen

952
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:05,359
amen yeah um and and

953
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,040
you know uh you know this probably but

954
00:35:05,359 --> 00:35:09,839
you know in the in the when the

955
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:12,400
evangelical theological society formed

956
00:35:09,839 --> 00:35:14,560
that is the scholarly society of

957
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,280
bible-believing scholars bible affirming

958
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,920
scholars

959
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,960
it was dispensational and reformed

960
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,320
people

961
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,560
uh including i think of uh you know

962
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,359
somebody like harold hohner from dallas

963
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,000
seminary

964
00:35:25,359 --> 00:35:30,000
yeah new testament professor and dear

965
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,560
friends with simon kistamacher who was

966
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,480
my senior colleague and taught at rts

967
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,160
stonehouse stonehouse is one of the

968
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,359
co-founders from westminster that's

969
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,320
another yeah

970
00:35:37,359 --> 00:35:42,480
um and yeah they all were working

971
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,960
together and they recognized

972
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,079
when they needed to pull together and

973
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,560
have their

974
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:49,119
have their disagreements uh if i could

975
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,119
you said

976
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:52,240
replacement and we need to get to that

977
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:55,760
of course

978
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:57,359
um because i think it does

979
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,880
to me it's one of the more compelling

980
00:35:57,359 --> 00:36:01,359
pictures biblically if

981
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,720
if the dispensations will just kind of

982
00:36:01,359 --> 00:36:05,599
listen to this

983
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,160
i think it could help so it's often said

984
00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:08,800
of

985
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,640
reform and here of course i mean

986
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,800
hermeneutically reformed

987
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,480
because we recognize many

988
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,280
dispensationalist brothers and sisters

989
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,599
are

990
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,440
reformed in their sociology so when i

991
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:20,640
say reformed i mean hermeneutically

992
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,680
reformed

993
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:26,720
uh redemptive historical um

994
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,359
some it is often a a

995
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:31,440
alleged that the reformed person

996
00:36:29,359 --> 00:36:34,560
believes in replacement theology that

997
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,000
israel is replaced by the church and

998
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,680
then when you put it that way

999
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,119
how could god simply abandon his

1000
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,640
promises to israel

1001
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:47,119
and and and replace them and

1002
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:49,359
um yeah and maybe he'll replace us

1003
00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:50,640
you know that's the thought well yeah

1004
00:36:49,359 --> 00:36:53,440
yeah

1005
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,079
uh how are we to know the future way the

1006
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,920
church is going

1007
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:59,440
now you know but um well they take it as

1008
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,000
an affront against god's

1009
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,560
faithfulness that god is a liar that god

1010
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,200
that's how

1011
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,880
that's how it's received and we you know

1012
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,000
god all of god's promises are yes in

1013
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,440
christ and he didn't throw

1014
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,000
any of his promises out now

1015
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,160
dispensationalists

1016
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,520
plead with reformed people not to

1017
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,320
misrepresent

1018
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,760
their views on say the mosaic covenant

1019
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,680
was a merit-based

1020
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,079
covenant you know schofield said that in

1021
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:27,599
the first bible and they changed it and

1022
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:29,280
and they they get understandably upset

1023
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,040
if people still represent that as a

1024
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,920
dispensational view so

1025
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,680
it's really important in reverse for

1026
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,200
dispensationalists not to misrepresent

1027
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,280
reformed views

1028
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,359
replacement theology is not what any

1029
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,640
reformed person believes that i've

1030
00:37:41,359 --> 00:37:47,440
read think of it this way

1031
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,760
abram looked at the stars abram looked

1032
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,079
at the sand of the sea

1033
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,599
and if he had had enough foresight and

1034
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:54,480
faith at that moment he would have said

1035
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:57,119
to himself

1036
00:37:54,480 --> 00:38:00,079
you know one day we we jews are going to

1037
00:37:57,119 --> 00:38:03,040
be a minority in this thing

1038
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:03,599
because the whole nations are going to

1039
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,800
be

1040
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:09,839
blessed through him yeah if you read the

1041
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,680
the closing chapters of isaiah where the

1042
00:38:09,839 --> 00:38:13,280
return from exiles happened you've got

1043
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,760
egyptians and babylon

1044
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,400
running alongside jews saying can we go

1045
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,320
back with

1046
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,640
i mean there's an expectation that if

1047
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:23,440
god keeps his promises to israel

1048
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,200
the ones he made to abraham that one day

1049
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,599
jews would be a minority among the

1050
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,320
followers of god

1051
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:33,839
so what happens in the gospels jesus

1052
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,839
comes first to the house of israel

1053
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,160
as has been the history over the whole

1054
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,280
old testament it's only a remnant

1055
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,000
who really truly trusts in the lord and

1056
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,079
so

1057
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,400
jesus and there are multiple peril

1058
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:48,000
parables which reinforce this one

1059
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,560
one of the most clear is the parable of

1060
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:52,720
the vineyard yes absolutely

1061
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,800
yeah so the stewards of israel the

1062
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,400
official leaders

1063
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,079
not only progressively reject the

1064
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,520
prophetic message but they end up saying

1065
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:00,560
if we kill the sun we'll own the

1066
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,119
vineyard

1067
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,599
and in one of the gospels jesus actually

1068
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:08,720
has the crowd pronounced sentence

1069
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:09,680
it's brilliant uh rhetorically but he

1070
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:11,440
says

1071
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,200
this vineyard is going to be taken away

1072
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,920
from those wicked tenants

1073
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,720
and given to others who will produce the

1074
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,920
fruit in

1075
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:21,599
in keeping with uh god's god's desired

1076
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,160
god's purposes

1077
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:26,160
okay who were the first followers of

1078
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,480
jesus they were jews

1079
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,320
so you have this remnant of jesus

1080
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,920
himself being the remnant in a person

1081
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,560
but then his followers his jewish

1082
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,880
followers

1083
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,640
and pretty soon what's happening well

1084
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,400
gentiles

1085
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,079
are pushing their way in in fact in

1086
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,599
john's gospel it's the coming of the

1087
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:43,040
greeks that trigger the hour of

1088
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:44,960
glorification

1089
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,920
where jesus said is now's the time you

1090
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,800
know for for me to go to the cross so

1091
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,720
all that happens in the gospels and all

1092
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,640
that comes out of that

1093
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:56,720
in the rest of the new testament is just

1094
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,760
the natural outworking what god promised

1095
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,359
to israel

1096
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:04,720
the only thing missing is what

1097
00:40:01,359 --> 00:40:06,079
the land so that's we can talk about

1098
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:08,160
that

1099
00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:10,400
as a separate thing if we have time but

1100
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,960
but look it's a

1101
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,800
perfectly natural organic process and

1102
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,119
you mentioned romans 11

1103
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,280
that's what it's talking about right you

1104
00:40:17,119 --> 00:40:22,400
have this vine

1105
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,520
and we know the vine is jesus and we

1106
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,640
know that

1107
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,560
branches are cut off those are the

1108
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,160
particularly the official leaders of

1109
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,760
israel the religious leaders who

1110
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,800
rejected him

1111
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:38,079
uh we have wild branches

1112
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,280
grafted in and some

1113
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:41,440
branches that are cut off can be

1114
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,359
re-grafted into

1115
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,599
the new testament overwhelmingly speaks

1116
00:40:43,359 --> 00:40:49,520
of being jewish

1117
00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:53,280
as something based not on ethnicity

1118
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:56,560
but on faith in christ right so

1119
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,800
uh it really takes a lot it takes

1120
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,480
something very material and substantial

1121
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,839
to go back and reread all that

1122
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,680
and come up with an israel church

1123
00:41:01,839 --> 00:41:06,800
distinction uh

1124
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:10,079
if you're reading the gospels in in my

1125
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,960
in my view no i agree in in mine as well

1126
00:41:10,079 --> 00:41:14,319
i mean there there

1127
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:17,359
also is this tendency uh

1128
00:41:14,319 --> 00:41:19,520
to to read things in

1129
00:41:17,359 --> 00:41:20,640
that this is the not the most precise of

1130
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,800
language but what

1131
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,480
what is said to be the literal meaning

1132
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,400
of the text or the

1133
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,640
the plain reading of the text it's not

1134
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,480
that simple because jesus also says i'm

1135
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,480
the door of the sheep and i've never met

1136
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,680
a dispensationalist who thought jesus

1137
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,520
was literally a door um but

1138
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,839
the plane meaning you know they when

1139
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,599
they see prophecies and promises given

1140
00:41:39,839 --> 00:41:44,960
to the nation of israel

1141
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:48,880
when it talks about a temple they

1142
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:51,200
they will frequently demand that

1143
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,480
these things would come true in in the

1144
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,839
straightforward meaning not a

1145
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,319
metaphorical meaning that there

1146
00:41:53,839 --> 00:41:59,440
literally will be a temple rebuilt

1147
00:41:56,319 --> 00:42:01,599
the land will be the precise land of

1148
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,760
this geographic dimensions in the middle

1149
00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:06,880
east that are described and

1150
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,800
etc and to find the ultimate fulfillment

1151
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,720
of these things in the person of christ

1152
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,160
even even when the bible says certain

1153
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:14,960
things are fulfilled in christ

1154
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,240
as in jesus was speaking about his body

1155
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,920
when he was talking about

1156
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:19,280
rebuilding the temple rebuilding the

1157
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,560
temple

1158
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,400
exactly there still needs to be the

1159
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,920
the kind of word for word literal

1160
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,440
fulfillment that you see in the old

1161
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,920
testament otherwise god

1162
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,760
is not faithful to his covenant people

1163
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,280
and and vern poitras is really good in

1164
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,960
his book on this he gives several

1165
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:37,520
examples of how

1166
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:40,160
even though dispensationalists insist on

1167
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:42,240
the literal or plain meaning

1168
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,520
that they're they're not consistent in

1169
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:45,760
how they do that

1170
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,280
and even to the point of dividing verses

1171
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,359
where one verse applies to the church

1172
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,160
one verse applies to israel

1173
00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:53,359
uh i wasn't allowed to keep it in the

1174
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,000
article and it probably shouldn't have

1175
00:42:53,359 --> 00:42:56,480
been but a

1176
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,520
funny story along these lines we could

1177
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,280
say it here

1178
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,040
we had a notable i'm not going to give

1179
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,800
names we had a very notable progressive

1180
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,640
dispensationalist come and speak

1181
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,880
give lectures on our campus back in the

1182
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:10,240
90s it was a good time

1183
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:12,760
he spoke well of his uh

1184
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,319
of the emerging at that time progressive

1185
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,240
dispensationalism

1186
00:43:14,319 --> 00:43:18,240
and i asked a question because you know

1187
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:19,280
i i went to westminster when the

1188
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:21,839
literary and

1189
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,960
approach to scripture was uh was very

1190
00:43:21,839 --> 00:43:25,520
strong

1191
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,800
and it occurred to me so i asked the

1192
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,280
question

1193
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,480
and i actually find it i found a

1194
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,520
documented quote

1195
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:37,280
for the article here increasingly

1196
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,920
increasing literary awareness of the

1197
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,359
increasing awareness of the literary

1198
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:45,200
nature of the old testament

1199
00:43:41,359 --> 00:43:46,800
had an impact on dispensationalists who

1200
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,160
became progressive disciplines

1201
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:52,800
sure and so i asked this uh very fine

1202
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:55,200
scholar i asked him that question i said

1203
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,480
has a literary approach that's become

1204
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,359
pretty

1205
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,000
strong among conservatives now did has

1206
00:43:59,359 --> 00:44:02,240
that

1207
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,839
helped foster progress dispensationalism

1208
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:07,359
well he knew where i was going

1209
00:44:03,839 --> 00:44:10,319
he said well he said if ezekiel said a

1210
00:44:07,359 --> 00:44:14,240
temple i have to believe him in a temple

1211
00:44:10,319 --> 00:44:16,720
and he was teaching at a very notable

1212
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:18,160
dispensational institution at the time

1213
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:19,920
and

1214
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,599
if you know me my personality wouldn't

1215
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,000
be surprised that i said to him well i

1216
00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:25,520
know you

1217
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,520
have to believe that but you know

1218
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:29,280
he uh he kind of he didn't appreciate

1219
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,800
the

1220
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:35,599
humor sure because

1221
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,359
if he had given up on some of those

1222
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,560
fundamentals

1223
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:40,079
uh he probably would have been looking

1224
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,079
for he would have found a job he's a

1225
00:44:40,079 --> 00:44:43,920
good scholar but yeah

1226
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:46,160
there are certain things and i was

1227
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,319
looking for a sociological term

1228
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,800
i i thought it was a reification but

1229
00:44:48,319 --> 00:44:53,839
it's it's that's not the right word

1230
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,520
uh but one one term that might fit is

1231
00:44:53,839 --> 00:44:58,720
vestigial

1232
00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:02,480
there are certain vestigial beliefs

1233
00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:05,359
even when larger pieces start to fall

1234
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,720
there's certain features that hang on

1235
00:45:05,359 --> 00:45:07,760
even though the reasons for those

1236
00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:09,920
features

1237
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,040
yeah um aren't necessarily still in

1238
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,680
place and i think that's

1239
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,440
one and for your listeners if they've

1240
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,560
never read edmond clowney's

1241
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,880
article called the final temple

1242
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,800
from uh the journal of the evangelical

1243
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:26,640
theological society

1244
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:30,000
uh uh back in the maybe early 80s

1245
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:32,640
late 70s it's just wonderful on this

1246
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,000
and i i don't mean to be uh cute because

1247
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,200
i don't think he means to be cute when

1248
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,880
he says it but i'm paraphrasing him

1249
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,400
if after jesus meets the woman at the

1250
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,880
well and says

1251
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,400
essentially no longer on gerizim no

1252
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,839
longer in jerusalem

1253
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,280
but everyone will worship

1254
00:45:47,839 --> 00:45:51,280
in the spirit

1255
00:45:51,359 --> 00:45:54,640
uh and you have to connect that back to

1256
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,880
what he was saying in chapter two about

1257
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,440
him being the temple

1258
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,359
jesus is the temple now present among us

1259
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,960
in the spirit

1260
00:46:01,359 --> 00:46:05,599
he said if you're talking about sending

1261
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,440
jewish people back to a stone temple

1262
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:09,440
it in my words now it's like sending

1263
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,800
them to the back of the bus

1264
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,040
that's right once you've worshipped in

1265
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:16,160
the resurrected the spirit of the

1266
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,160
resurrected christ

1267
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:21,280
to then relegate a portion of god's

1268
00:46:19,359 --> 00:46:23,200
people to back to its own temple is a

1269
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,520
regression it's not a progression of

1270
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,119
of salvation and that seems to be what

1271
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,880
the author of hebrews is

1272
00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:31,200
castigating or warning warning the

1273
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,800
people of old covenant believers who

1274
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,640
have been brought into the new covenant

1275
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,480
but seemingly want to go back to the old

1276
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,000
they like the modes and methods of old

1277
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,400
covenant worship

1278
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,520
he said this is this is a re-sacrificing

1279
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,119
of christ

1280
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,880
in my understanding of that it's because

1281
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:47,520
the old testament organically

1282
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,040
gave birth to and brought about christ

1283
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,440
and if you don't like

1284
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:53,200
the christ you got you can't rewind the

1285
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,040
clock and ask for a different one

1286
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,640
i mean this this is naturally what we

1287
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,359
receive and we couldn't get anything

1288
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,480
better than that

1289
00:46:57,359 --> 00:47:02,640
he's the ultimate well said i mean in in

1290
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,640
in hebrews leads toward that that

1291
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:08,319
chapter there in 12

1292
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:11,359
where we have come to zion we have come

1293
00:47:08,319 --> 00:47:12,400
to um the city of god the myriad of

1294
00:47:11,359 --> 00:47:15,839
angels

1295
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:18,319
uh to a kingdom which cannot be shaken

1296
00:47:15,839 --> 00:47:20,400
yeah and dispensationalists traditional

1297
00:47:18,319 --> 00:47:23,200
dispensationalists believe

1298
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,400
we're not in the kingdom promised david

1299
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,720
yet

1300
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,720
david is not on his throne yet well

1301
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,800
hebrews 12 says we've come to a kingdom

1302
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:34,079
which cannot be shaken

1303
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,839
but all um all these things that were

1304
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:38,160
promised to earthly israel

1305
00:47:35,839 --> 00:47:41,040
we're told in hebrews 12 now we've come

1306
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:44,960
in because christ himself has entered in

1307
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:48,079
we're there now and to say

1308
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,599
i want to go back is to

1309
00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:51,200
it's like well that's what you're

1310
00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:53,359
suggesting right it's like going back to

1311
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,359
egypt once you've been

1312
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:57,119
exactly that's exactly the point that's

1313
00:47:55,359 --> 00:48:00,240
the illustration he says

1314
00:47:57,119 --> 00:48:01,119
yeah yeah that's this is this is so

1315
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:03,040
helpful i think

1316
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:05,119
people are going to really appreciate

1317
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,720
this i'm curious if we can walk through

1318
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:09,200
a little bit of the history

1319
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:10,480
and the development of of the movement

1320
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,520
we go back to

1321
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,520
uh john nelson darby whose dates are

1322
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,760
1800 to 1882.

1323
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:19,160
he was effectively the founder of the

1324
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,960
system known as

1325
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,880
dispensationalism but then we quickly

1326
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,720
move on to some other figures inglis and

1327
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,680
schofield and we get to dallas

1328
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:29,359
theological seminary i'm wondering if

1329
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,680
you might be able to provide a bit of a

1330
00:48:29,359 --> 00:48:34,240
thumbnail sketch and even with the

1331
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,280
sociological and cultural context in

1332
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:38,240
view how did

1333
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,200
how did this arise what gave what

1334
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,839
allowed it to

1335
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,240
to to come to shape and then you know

1336
00:48:41,839 --> 00:48:44,880
why

1337
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:45,280
how and why has it been mutating so

1338
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,200
great

1339
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,880
over the years and i'll go full

1340
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,240
thumbnail on you here camden so we can

1341
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,920
make sure we cover everything

1342
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:55,599
well i got nowhere to go but i want to

1343
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:58,079
be respectful of your time as well

1344
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:58,720
i won't get out of control but you know

1345
00:48:58,079 --> 00:49:02,720
darby

1346
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:06,400
sees the uh kind of late industrial

1347
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:10,240
post-millennial kind of situation

1348
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:13,520
uh of of the of britain

1349
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:16,559
uh with uh you know the the the crown is

1350
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:18,640
the head of the church and uh

1351
00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:20,240
nominalism and then you have the inroads

1352
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,359
of higher criticism in the biblical

1353
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:24,720
studies

1354
00:49:21,359 --> 00:49:26,720
and i think was bonhoeffer who said when

1355
00:49:24,720 --> 00:49:28,160
religion becomes civil it stops being

1356
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:30,559
either

1357
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,640
and so darby sees you know this this

1358
00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:34,720
this nominalism that is not

1359
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,280
what the new testament or what the bible

1360
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:39,520
describes as being a follower of christ

1361
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,880
and so and and and you have the social

1362
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,640
upheaval that creates a lot of

1363
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,200
uncertainty just like right now you know

1364
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,680
people

1365
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,599
like is the world i remember the 70s you

1366
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,680
know and people felt the same way then

1367
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:51,119
what's going on it's a little bit

1368
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,960
unnerving

1369
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:55,599
so he stiff arms the uh the official

1370
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,599
church

1371
00:49:55,599 --> 00:50:02,960
eventually renounces his uh ordination

1372
00:49:59,599 --> 00:50:03,760
and and and and he perceives in the

1373
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,040
bible this

1374
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:10,960
dualism between earthlings and

1375
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:15,680
and and heavenliness which uh

1376
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:19,280
sets him on this hermeneutical path um

1377
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,079
to um both make sure the church

1378
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:24,240
understands

1379
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:25,839
its other worldliness and to

1380
00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:27,920
rest upon the literal teaching of

1381
00:50:25,839 --> 00:50:30,720
scripture because

1382
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,559
higher criticism liberalism in general

1383
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:34,800
uh is not taking the bible seriously

1384
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:37,920
anymore

1385
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:40,880
now james inglis

1386
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,440
is sort of a go-between between britain

1387
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,559
and

1388
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:49,440
the states where he

1389
00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:52,960
brings darby's teaching to the states

1390
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,559
but he's as a

1391
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,559
more appreciative of american

1392
00:50:54,559 --> 00:51:00,480
denominational loyalties

1393
00:50:56,559 --> 00:51:04,160
and so he's um he's he's wanting to

1394
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:06,800
uh distance what he's saying from

1395
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,800
darby's

1396
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:14,319
uh sectarianism um schizomatic kind of

1397
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:16,640
nature but um

1398
00:51:14,319 --> 00:51:18,160
but as we've been talking about earlier

1399
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,000
in the in particular in the northern

1400
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,040
presbyterian church

1401
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,040
where uh the authority of the scripture

1402
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,960
is declining and traditional theological

1403
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,480
views are declining

1404
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,079
it's almost like a back to the bible

1405
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,079
kind of movement

1406
00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:33,359
and he started the prophecy movement

1407
00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:35,040
didn't he was he also involved in

1408
00:51:33,359 --> 00:51:37,440
various publications in

1409
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,040
in how he proliferated these ideas yeah

1410
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,319
so you have the beginning and

1411
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:45,040
parachurch essentially right i see um

1412
00:51:42,319 --> 00:51:45,760
and this would be a great kind of side

1413
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,920
lesson too

1414
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,920
like

1415
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,280
letting the church teach us instead of

1416
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,000
taking the church's teaching under

1417
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,720
advisement

1418
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,880
and getting our theology from itinerant

1419
00:51:56,720 --> 00:52:01,280
people who

1420
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,040
yeah that's a huge issue with the old

1421
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,559
school and new school and all that going

1422
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,319
on

1423
00:52:04,559 --> 00:52:08,559
and that probably explains too because

1424
00:52:06,319 --> 00:52:11,359
moody is not a presbyterian

1425
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:12,240
moody is an armenian but you know he's

1426
00:52:11,359 --> 00:52:14,319
uh

1427
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:16,640
continuing the new measures of finney

1428
00:52:14,319 --> 00:52:20,160
and you know revivalism

1429
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:21,119
and um and and and and finds the other

1430
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,000
worldliness

1431
00:52:21,119 --> 00:52:25,599
of dispensationalism uh a compelling

1432
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:29,760
system

1433
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:31,599
and so um so that would explain how

1434
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,800
dispensationalism permeates the sort of

1435
00:52:31,599 --> 00:52:35,280
the non-denom

1436
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,400
bible church independent church movement

1437
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,839
but english

1438
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:42,319
who has st louis connections

1439
00:52:39,839 --> 00:52:43,119
there's a pastor in st louis named

1440
00:52:42,319 --> 00:52:47,280
brooks

1441
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:48,800
there's a man who uh comes to faith and

1442
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,160
is attending that church in st

1443
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:54,160
louis named schofield and so you can see

1444
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:57,119
kind of the chain developing

1445
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,200
from uh inglis who's based i guess in

1446
00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:00,240
southeastern michigan but has a st louis

1447
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,839
connection and

1448
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:03,839
through brooks and the presbyterian

1449
00:53:01,839 --> 00:53:06,400
church there in saint louis

1450
00:53:03,839 --> 00:53:08,000
a northern presbytery interesting st

1451
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,440
louis is the frontier between the

1452
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,920
northern and southern presbyterian

1453
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,359
church

1454
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:17,440
and and while the southern presbyterians

1455
00:53:13,359 --> 00:53:19,200
have great issue with dispensationalism

1456
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,960
st louis is an interesting place because

1457
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,200
there's a you know

1458
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,079
the two denominations are about it

1459
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,079
against one another

1460
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:32,240
scofield is the popularizer and it's i

1461
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:34,480
guess if there's one lesson

1462
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:36,160
you know we can take away from this you

1463
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:38,240
know and it goes back to finney

1464
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,559
as well there are certain people who see

1465
00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:42,640
the opportunity to popularize

1466
00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:43,680
and they know how to do it they know how

1467
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,559
to

1468
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:48,480
get the goods to market so to speak the

1469
00:53:46,559 --> 00:53:51,520
prophecy conference is one of those

1470
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:53,920
vehicles and uh and and

1471
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:56,880
and schofield's study bible of course is

1472
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,880
the yes

1473
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,920
if you can get your notes right there

1474
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:04,240
right connected to the very

1475
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,680
you know word of god i mean that right

1476
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:07,680
that uh

1477
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,680
impacted and shaped just generations of

1478
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:14,400
christians and i don't know if

1479
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:17,920
schofield knew about the geneva bible

1480
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,720
but the reformers understood the value

1481
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,920
of

1482
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:26,400
of of having theological notes alongside

1483
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:28,240
to help the reader so schofield's bible

1484
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,040
and his comp and the prophecy

1485
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,920
conferences uh proliferate

1486
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,839
dispensationalism

1487
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,520
and the social conditions of america

1488
00:54:33,839 --> 00:54:38,799
continue to feed the angst

1489
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:41,359
uh that uh makes it all plausible

1490
00:54:38,799 --> 00:54:42,400
now it's interesting uh real quick even

1491
00:54:41,359 --> 00:54:45,440
on the scofield

1492
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,000
reference bible to consider you can

1493
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,240
track

1494
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,200
a little bit of the movement or the

1495
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:51,359
development of

1496
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,280
of dispensationalism itself just through

1497
00:54:51,359 --> 00:54:55,040
the editions of the scofield bible

1498
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,040
correct yeah you can look at things that

1499
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,880
were eliminated and

1500
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,880
see how maybe some of the sharp edges

1501
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,720
were were softened a little

1502
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,160
in palmer robertson's chapter in christ

1503
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:05,359
the covenants actually gives the

1504
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,240
references one

1505
00:55:05,359 --> 00:55:08,799
particular one that is very informative

1506
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:12,079
is

1507
00:55:08,799 --> 00:55:16,160
um in the context of

1508
00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:17,920
of genesis um

1509
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,440
i don't have the ready reference here

1510
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,920
but um

1511
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,799
i think it might be 12 12 1. genesis 12.

1512
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:27,440
yeah

1513
00:55:22,799 --> 00:55:30,000
uh schofield refers to exodus 19.

1514
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,359
so in genesis 12 you have god making the

1515
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,559
promised abram

1516
00:55:31,359 --> 00:55:37,040
totally gracious totally unilateral all

1517
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:40,640
abraham has to do is trust the lord

1518
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:43,599
and act according to faith

1519
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:45,119
in exodus 19 israel is at the foot of

1520
00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:48,160
mount sinai

1521
00:55:45,119 --> 00:55:51,599
and god

1522
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:53,440
offers israel the law and israel's

1523
00:55:51,599 --> 00:55:55,200
response is all that you've spoken we

1524
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,440
will do

1525
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,359
and scofield in that very first edition

1526
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:02,160
of the study bible

1527
00:55:59,359 --> 00:56:04,319
describes israel as having rationally

1528
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,559
accepted the terms of the mosaic

1529
00:56:04,319 --> 00:56:09,680
covenant

1530
00:56:06,559 --> 00:56:12,559
and in doing so they went from being

1531
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:16,160
under a gracious arrangement with god

1532
00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:18,799
to a works based right

1533
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:20,000
meritorious workspace arrangement with

1534
00:56:18,799 --> 00:56:23,280
god

1535
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:24,079
and uh he's has another note elsewhere

1536
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,839
which might

1537
00:56:24,079 --> 00:56:28,079
kind of soften that a little bit but

1538
00:56:25,839 --> 00:56:30,799
it's very stark the way it says it

1539
00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:32,960
and i think a lot of people probably

1540
00:56:30,799 --> 00:56:36,000
still read the old testament that way

1541
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,799
abraham good moses bad abraham under

1542
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:41,040
grace

1543
00:56:36,799 --> 00:56:42,640
moses is law and there are passages

1544
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,359
including in the new testament including

1545
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:48,480
like romans 7

1546
00:56:45,359 --> 00:56:52,319
that might mis

1547
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:55,920
if not read uh clearly

1548
00:56:52,319 --> 00:56:59,040
could could lend itself to that the law

1549
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,599
came and it would paul says i didn't

1550
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,880
know

1551
00:56:59,599 --> 00:57:05,839
about sin until the law came and uh

1552
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,839
but and i'm sure you've done programs on

1553
00:57:05,839 --> 00:57:10,559
what paul means by the word law

1554
00:57:07,839 --> 00:57:12,799
very uh very contentious or a lot of

1555
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:14,640
different views on that chapter

1556
00:57:12,799 --> 00:57:18,079
but but here's here's the easy thing in

1557
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:20,480
terms of of exodus 19

1558
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:21,680
israel was under grace when god gave

1559
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,680
them the law

1560
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,880
he had already delivered them from the

1561
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,040
house of bondage

1562
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,480
they were already a kingdom of priests

1563
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:31,680
and a holy nation

1564
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:33,119
uh deuteronomy 7 says the lord loved you

1565
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,400
not because you were greatest among the

1566
00:57:33,119 --> 00:57:38,079
nations but because the lord loved you

1567
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,160
you almost see ephesians 1 right there

1568
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:43,200
you know god's good pleasure to

1569
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:45,359
graciously set his affection on israel

1570
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,480
and israel their whole sacrificial

1571
00:57:45,359 --> 00:57:48,319
system was

1572
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,280
the means by which they could continue

1573
00:57:48,319 --> 00:57:54,799
to live under grace

1574
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:58,000
and god's patience over

1575
00:57:54,799 --> 00:58:00,799
let's see from 1450 until

1576
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,799
you know 586 god's patience with

1577
00:58:00,799 --> 00:58:04,480
israel's continued covenant breaking

1578
00:58:02,799 --> 00:58:06,319
and giving him opportunity after

1579
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:09,760
opportunity uh

1580
00:58:06,319 --> 00:58:12,240
the it's impossible to read the mosaic

1581
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:14,480
covenant as a replacement

1582
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,240
of the abrahamic covenant if you if you

1583
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,359
read the the data

1584
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:21,520
uh fairly uh but that's how scofield

1585
00:58:19,359 --> 00:58:22,960
clearly saw at the beginning and that's

1586
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,480
how

1587
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:28,240
even though that comment was removed in

1588
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,640
the second edition

1589
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,880
i i mentioned in the article ways in

1590
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:36,400
which that

1591
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:39,520
impression continues to be

1592
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:43,280
upheld now we don't want to say

1593
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:46,640
dispensationalists believe that

1594
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:47,359
salvation by works was how people were

1595
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,000
saved

1596
00:58:47,359 --> 00:58:52,400
under the mosaic covenant much less

1597
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:55,839
saved that way today

1598
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:58,400
but but that

1599
00:58:55,839 --> 00:59:00,400
can is it prejudice too strong a word or

1600
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:03,440
a prejudicial reading of the

1601
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:07,599
mosaic law

1602
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:10,160
sees the the the period of moses that's

1603
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:11,839
antithetical to the period of christ

1604
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,359
oh i think i think that's that's

1605
00:59:11,839 --> 00:59:16,400
definitely the case uh

1606
00:59:13,359 --> 00:59:17,200
in yeah just to just to summarize i mean

1607
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,440
the

1608
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,520
classic dispensationalism would say that

1609
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:24,720
israel was better off

1610
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,520
under abraham and messed up they should

1611
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,839
have held out

1612
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,599
for a better contract or something yeah

1613
00:59:27,839 --> 00:59:32,480
or just decline the offer decline the

1614
00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:34,960
offer and just stick with what they have

1615
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,720
and how that doesn't impinge upon god's

1616
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,440
character is also you know another

1617
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,440
problem

1618
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:41,119
i mean and the new testament tells us

1619
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,880
you know uh

1620
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:44,559
that even when they drank the water in

1621
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,200
the wilderness they drank christ when

1622
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:46,400
they were about

1623
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,799
when they went through the sea they were

1624
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:51,520
baptized into christ

1625
00:59:48,799 --> 00:59:54,160
and and and jesus isn't the true bread

1626
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:56,079
because moses gave them false bread

1627
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,680
jesus is the true bread because he is

1628
00:59:56,079 --> 00:59:59,040
the full fullness of what the bread

1629
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:01,599
moses gave

1630
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,680
was to point towards so moses was a

1631
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:05,440
servant in god's house and christ is

1632
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,720
faithful as a son i mean that's but it's

1633
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,359
the same house

1634
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:10,000
he was a servant in the house yes he

1635
01:00:09,359 --> 01:00:13,520
wasn't

1636
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:16,160
an enemy of god but um and this is

1637
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,839
a a real problem with i'd say the

1638
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:20,400
majority of evangelicals who are

1639
01:00:17,839 --> 01:00:21,760
antinomian today

1640
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,200
that they don't see the old testament

1641
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,280
laws having anything to do with the

1642
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:28,720
christian life today

1643
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:31,920
uh they don't see the grace of the law

1644
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:34,400
or uh another subject for another day

1645
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:36,160
the law is a rule of gratitude i mean

1646
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,799
the law preaches christ and all his

1647
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:41,200
fullness

1648
01:00:36,799 --> 01:00:44,000
that passover lamb the perfect

1649
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:45,839
specimen that died in the place of the

1650
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:49,119
firstborn on that night i mean

1651
01:00:45,839 --> 01:00:51,440
that's not the gospel um

1652
01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:53,920
and uh the priest who stood ministering

1653
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:57,680
before the lord with the names of israel

1654
01:00:53,920 --> 01:01:01,680
on his uniform that's not the gospel

1655
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:06,319
yes the law of moses makes us realize

1656
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:08,880
how far short of god's will we fall

1657
01:01:06,319 --> 01:01:10,960
but it doesn't introduce the illness it

1658
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:13,760
just gives us the diagnosis in a way

1659
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:15,440
that and on the other side too and i

1660
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:18,000
mentioned this in the article

1661
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,440
uh it is wrong to see the abrahamic

1662
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,480
covenant as not

1663
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,920
as unconditional in the sense that

1664
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,160
there were conditions attached to the

1665
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,280
abrahamic covenant it was to believe the

1666
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,480
lord

1667
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:33,839
genesis 18 uh god says

1668
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,680
you know if if uh if if you

1669
01:01:33,839 --> 01:01:38,960
if you trust in me then i'll fulfill my

1670
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:40,880
promises genesis 26 to isaac

1671
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,480
abra i blessed abraham because he obeyed

1672
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,079
my statutes law commandments and

1673
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:46,559
ordinances you know

1674
01:01:44,079 --> 01:01:48,000
uh faith and obedience are never

1675
01:01:46,559 --> 01:01:48,960
disconnected even though they're

1676
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:52,200
discreet

1677
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:53,839
right and so the overplaying of the

1678
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,760
unconditionality of the

1679
01:01:53,839 --> 01:01:57,760
abrahamic covenant and the over

1680
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,960
emphasizing of the conditionality the

1681
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,680
mosaic

1682
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,480
creates this perception that they're

1683
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,160
they don't

1684
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,880
have much to do with each other whereas

1685
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,559
one they're actually organically the

1686
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,440
development of one of the same

1687
01:02:08,559 --> 01:02:13,359
covenant perhaps that might play into

1688
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,319
how there can be such a disconnect

1689
01:02:13,359 --> 01:02:16,480
between

1690
01:02:14,319 --> 01:02:18,559
israel and the church even in in the

1691
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:20,400
millennial period where the

1692
01:02:18,559 --> 01:02:22,400
church has to be removed through the

1693
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:24,160
rapture so that god may resume his his

1694
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:26,720
plans and purposes with

1695
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,400
ethnic israel and then how even these

1696
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:31,599
two groups of people might

1697
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:35,119
remain in distinct realms or at least

1698
01:02:31,599 --> 01:02:37,039
distinct areas or purposes even on into

1699
01:02:35,119 --> 01:02:39,599
the new heavens and the new earth that

1700
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:41,440
perhaps that helps with the fertilizing

1701
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:42,960
the soil as it were

1702
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,880
yeah i think that's a good observation

1703
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,880
yeah i'm wondering uh

1704
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,960
you know things progressed with with

1705
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:51,280
dallas theological seminary think of

1706
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,880
schaefer and walvard and pentecost i

1707
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,400
mentioned pentecost earlier dwight

1708
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,400
pentecost

1709
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,400
i'm curious about uh ryrie and then

1710
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:00,400
moving on into the

1711
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,640
the presbyterian tradition just out of

1712
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:04,079
on my own personal history

1713
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,440
i wonder if you could help me on some of

1714
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:06,480
this because it's interesting to think

1715
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,799
how

1716
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:10,400
especially in the north uh the northern

1717
01:03:08,799 --> 01:03:12,640
presbyterian churches

1718
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,839
several of them you know gravitated this

1719
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,000
way as something of a remedy to

1720
01:03:14,839 --> 01:03:18,640
liberalism

1721
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:20,400
rather than going you know maybe toward

1722
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,160
the areas that other

1723
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:24,160
more conservative denominations went

1724
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,359
such as the orthodox presbyterian church

1725
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,200
but

1726
01:03:25,359 --> 01:03:29,440
how how did this come about even

1727
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:32,400
sociologically speaking

1728
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:34,480
that these that these that this the

1729
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,000
dispensationalism continued to grow and

1730
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,920
even flourish in certain quarters of

1731
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:41,039
presbyterianism

1732
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:43,599
um one thing i think is

1733
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:44,640
uh explains that is and i put it this

1734
01:03:43,599 --> 01:03:46,000
way

1735
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:49,039
there's a reason there's never been an

1736
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,039
amillennial movie

1737
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:58,559
um it would be

1738
01:03:54,160 --> 01:04:01,000
boring compared to uh and by that i mean

1739
01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:04,640
right dispensationalism

1740
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:07,920
dispensationalism with its end times

1741
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:11,359
structures is a very dramatic

1742
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:14,720
uh suspenseful kind of

1743
01:04:11,359 --> 01:04:18,400
a narrative that appeals

1744
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:19,680
to the heightened watchfulness of people

1745
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:23,119
during

1746
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:25,119
uncertain times and i don't mean to

1747
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:26,400
dismiss it all to sociological and

1748
01:04:25,119 --> 01:04:29,920
psychological

1749
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:32,960
uh factors but uh you know

1750
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:35,760
there were the the ten virgins

1751
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:37,520
who were to keep their lamps trimmed uh

1752
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,520
you know there's a certain watch on this

1753
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:40,880
you know the the coming lord we look

1754
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:44,799
like a thief in the night

1755
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:45,599
and and uh the suddenness of christ

1756
01:04:44,799 --> 01:04:48,240
appearing and then

1757
01:04:45,599 --> 01:04:49,680
the importance of being ready and there

1758
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,440
is

1759
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:53,920
there you know there's there's a

1760
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:55,599
continuum of dispensational primal all

1761
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:55,920
the way through post-millennial and it's

1762
01:04:55,599 --> 01:04:59,039
a

1763
01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:00,559
matter of degrees all within there are

1764
01:04:59,039 --> 01:05:03,039
more

1765
01:05:00,559 --> 01:05:06,000
optimistic all males who probably don't

1766
01:05:03,039 --> 01:05:06,000
perceive the

1767
01:05:06,839 --> 01:05:11,839
antithesis between the kingdom of christ

1768
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:14,880
and the kingdom of this world

1769
01:05:11,839 --> 01:05:17,680
there are more pessimistic almails who

1770
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,880
feel something more of the urgency of

1771
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:22,160
that antithesis

1772
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:24,319
and um uh i think

1773
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:26,079
probably during this time mains the

1774
01:05:24,319 --> 01:05:28,160
mainline churches

1775
01:05:26,079 --> 01:05:29,359
are probably predominantly almil and

1776
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:31,760
post mill

1777
01:05:29,359 --> 01:05:33,039
which doesn't quite create that sense of

1778
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:36,079
urgency

1779
01:05:33,039 --> 01:05:39,359
whereas the post the premium eschatology

1780
01:05:36,079 --> 01:05:41,520
does uh touch on that sense of urgency

1781
01:05:39,359 --> 01:05:44,559
that's one thing

1782
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:48,640
um the the

1783
01:05:44,559 --> 01:05:51,839
the marketing brilliance if you will of

1784
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:55,520
the popularizers whether it's scofield

1785
01:05:51,839 --> 01:05:57,440
uh or lindsay's late great planet earth

1786
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,880
we shouldn't leave out ryrie study bible

1787
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,880
because you know

1788
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:03,440
charles robbery study bible was the go

1789
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:05,920
to study bible of the 70s and 80s

1790
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:07,680
yeah before the new geneva became

1791
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:11,039
available

1792
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:13,119
and the jerry jenkins left behind series

1793
01:06:11,039 --> 01:06:14,960
books

1794
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:16,960
well there was even the movie thief in

1795
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:19,200
the night

1796
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:22,400
i saw in a theater when i was probably i

1797
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,400
don't know early teens

1798
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:28,960
so that's certainly one factor

1799
01:06:26,559 --> 01:06:28,960
um

1800
01:06:29,839 --> 01:06:37,039
the relative disconnect between the law

1801
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:40,680
and faith that

1802
01:06:37,039 --> 01:06:44,559
was amenable to revivalism

1803
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:47,520
conversionism decisionism

1804
01:06:44,559 --> 01:06:49,760
you know the the crusades of the 50s 60s

1805
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,559
and 70s the big evangelical crusades

1806
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,559
that

1807
01:06:50,559 --> 01:06:55,520
put the emphasis on the decision rather

1808
01:06:52,559 --> 01:06:58,400
than on discipleship

1809
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:59,280
um those are some factors that come to

1810
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:02,799
mind

1811
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:04,000
are there others that i'm missing that

1812
01:07:02,799 --> 01:07:06,880
are softballs

1813
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,480
uh you're you're throwing me candy not

1814
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,160
that i think of i mean these are this is

1815
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:13,200
enlightening to me

1816
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:15,760
i'm curious if you've seen any

1817
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,240
any any movement on this or if you can

1818
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,400
uh

1819
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,920
wade into the prophetic waters yourself

1820
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,720
and and and see

1821
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:25,119
the trajectory of dispensationalism

1822
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:28,240
especially you know more in recent

1823
01:07:25,119 --> 01:07:29,920
eras we've seen uh you know movements

1824
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,520
like christian zionism but now

1825
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:33,039
progressive dispensationalism and the

1826
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:34,160
new covenant theology and progressive

1827
01:07:33,039 --> 01:07:36,480
covenantalism

1828
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,240
is that the end of the road uh is there

1829
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:40,720
going to be some sort of

1830
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:43,280
further development where are we now and

1831
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:46,640
where might we be in 10 years

1832
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,599
um the one obstacle and i just had a

1833
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:50,720
conversation

1834
01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:53,520
with a woman last week on this she was

1835
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:55,359
totally open to

1836
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,960
me describing some of these things to

1837
01:07:55,359 --> 01:07:59,760
her she says now i still

1838
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:01,280
is a very sincere you know state i still

1839
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,440
struggle with

1840
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,559
you know how if god promised israel the

1841
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:09,119
land

1842
01:08:04,559 --> 01:08:11,039
how could that not still be in play

1843
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:12,400
and so i do try to answer that briefly

1844
01:08:11,039 --> 01:08:15,520
in the article

1845
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:18,960
um bruce walkey use

1846
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:20,239
uses an analogy uh i'm not getting it

1847
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,799
precisely right but

1848
01:08:20,239 --> 01:08:24,719
if i promised you 50 and then later i

1849
01:08:22,799 --> 01:08:28,080
said here's a thousand dollars

1850
01:08:24,719 --> 01:08:31,359
you would not say to me where's my 50.

1851
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,080
and he uses that as analogy god promised

1852
01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:36,400
a land

1853
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:39,520
to israel the language of land

1854
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:40,319
is inheritance when you come to the new

1855
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:43,359
testament it

1856
01:08:40,319 --> 01:08:44,640
never talks about land but it does use

1857
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:46,719
the word inheritance

1858
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:48,000
certainly an inheritance is always with

1859
01:08:46,719 --> 01:08:51,040
reference to

1860
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:54,239
christ himself

1861
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:55,920
the fullness of the godhead and all that

1862
01:08:54,239 --> 01:08:58,560
is christ in other words

1863
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,040
the the inheritance of the believer in

1864
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:02,159
christ

1865
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:03,359
is god and we have a down payment by the

1866
01:09:02,159 --> 01:09:05,040
way in the holy spirit which is

1867
01:09:03,359 --> 01:09:09,199
ephesians 1.

1868
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:11,440
so to to look to the land as fulfillment

1869
01:09:09,199 --> 01:09:14,880
of that when inheritance now has been

1870
01:09:11,440 --> 01:09:17,920
directed toward god in his fullness is

1871
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:19,920
uh is is uh

1872
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,520
almost trivializing what what the new

1873
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,040
testament tells us

1874
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,880
another good part of the answer to this

1875
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:27,600
question is

1876
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,080
the land is answered in new heavens and

1877
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,719
earth

1878
01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:31,759
and amen yeah anthony hokema's book the

1879
01:09:30,719 --> 01:09:34,159
bible in the future

1880
01:09:31,759 --> 01:09:34,799
has a good treatment of that so it's not

1881
01:09:34,159 --> 01:09:37,279
that

1882
01:09:34,799 --> 01:09:37,839
reformed people ignore the land but they

1883
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:41,199
say it's

1884
01:09:37,839 --> 01:09:44,640
more than uh what did belinda carlisle

1885
01:09:41,199 --> 01:09:44,640
saying heaven is a place on earth

1886
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,880
it's it's the whole earth is going to be

1887
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:53,120
god's

1888
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:55,600
territory um so that's one thing

1889
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:57,040
the land thing has to be answered

1890
01:09:55,600 --> 01:10:00,159
credibly and sincerely

1891
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:03,360
secondly the the any the future of

1892
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:03,840
of jewish people and you and i know this

1893
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,560
that

1894
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:08,719
you know the romans 11 language of then

1895
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,760
all israel shall be saved

1896
01:10:08,719 --> 01:10:14,320
that can be understood as

1897
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:15,760
being jews and gentiles as we know them

1898
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:18,320
now or

1899
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:20,239
it can as john murray understood it to

1900
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:24,400
refer to some future

1901
01:10:20,239 --> 01:10:27,760
stirring up of of of jewish people to

1902
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:31,280
reclaim the promises that were theirs

1903
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:34,719
but which um uh they

1904
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:37,840
through those who rejected messiah

1905
01:10:34,719 --> 01:10:41,760
uh failed to embrace so

1906
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:43,679
those two things now um

1907
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:45,840
you mentioned christian zionism this is

1908
01:10:43,679 --> 01:10:47,760
a this is a bit of a sticky thing

1909
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:52,560
because

1910
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:55,120
christian zionism is the view that

1911
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,800
that christians have a moral spiritual

1912
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,560
obligation to support the nation of

1913
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:02,080
israel today

1914
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:05,440
that 1948 was the fulfillment of

1915
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:08,560
of prophecy and that

1916
01:11:05,440 --> 01:11:09,760
god will in and through the modern state

1917
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:13,120
of israel

1918
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:16,159
established the messianic kingdom

1919
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:20,000
uh in jerusalem on mount zion

1920
01:11:16,159 --> 01:11:20,640
um james jordan and i mentioned in the

1921
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,239
article there

1922
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:26,880
james jordan points out there's a real

1923
01:11:23,239 --> 01:11:29,920
inconsistency with that

1924
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:33,199
that belief because

1925
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:36,719
according to classic dispensationalism

1926
01:11:33,199 --> 01:11:38,560
the restoration of israel and and

1927
01:11:36,719 --> 01:11:40,080
and and the rebuilding of the temple all

1928
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:42,000
these things happen after the church is

1929
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:43,679
out of the world

1930
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:46,800
it's not something that's happened

1931
01:11:43,679 --> 01:11:46,800
that's going to happen while

1932
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,840
while the church is present christian

1933
01:11:49,199 --> 01:11:54,560
church is present

1934
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:56,560
that efforts to anticipate the second

1935
01:11:54,560 --> 01:12:00,080
coming go against the plain teaching

1936
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:01,440
of scripture because the the lord will

1937
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:04,400
come

1938
01:12:01,440 --> 01:12:04,400
unexpectedly

1939
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:08,560
so the christian zionism which is

1940
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:10,960
probably

1941
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:12,159
the most powerful form of dispensational

1942
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:13,440
he actually has an

1943
01:12:12,159 --> 01:12:16,640
internal contradiction to

1944
01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:19,760
dispensationalism but

1945
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:20,719
i think the reason it's so appealing is

1946
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:24,719
that it appeals

1947
01:12:20,719 --> 01:12:24,719
to christian nationalism

1948
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:30,239
there's this sense that america is an

1949
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:32,880
exceptional nation

1950
01:12:30,239 --> 01:12:35,280
and we need to be sure to say the

1951
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:40,000
providences of god toward

1952
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:43,679
america have been extraordinary

1953
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,679
as if all providences are not but

1954
01:12:45,679 --> 01:12:51,840
and so we identify with

1955
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:53,520
israel as an elect people we identify or

1956
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:55,040
we see reflected our own national

1957
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,800
experience

1958
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:58,960
now we're feeling tensions right now

1959
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,800
because for some people

1960
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,320
america has not been an exceptional

1961
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:05,600
experience over

1962
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:08,880
over time especially but this

1963
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:10,480
christian nationalism uh is really hard

1964
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:13,199
to chip away at

1965
01:13:10,480 --> 01:13:15,920
because it threatens again people's

1966
01:13:13,199 --> 01:13:19,840
security

1967
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:19,840
and um

1968
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:27,440
it it it feels like a bit of a threat

1969
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:30,400
to uh to try to say we should treat

1970
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:31,840
israel as good statecraft that's

1971
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:33,920
diplomatic

1972
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:35,840
work would treat them by the way the

1973
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:36,960
only functioning democracy in the whole

1974
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,520
region there's

1975
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,800
all kinds of good reasons to be a friend

1976
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:46,239
of israel

1977
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:49,280
but it does help us kind of gloss over

1978
01:13:46,239 --> 01:13:51,280
the the the downside

1979
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:53,440
again i mentioned this in the article

1980
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:54,800
some of america's policies where israel

1981
01:13:53,440 --> 01:13:57,840
have actually been the hardest on

1982
01:13:54,800 --> 01:14:00,960
christians in the middle east

1983
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:03,280
i remember meeting a friend

1984
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:05,120
who was from bethlehem and he had an

1985
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,880
arab name and i said so when did you

1986
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:09,520
become a christian he said

1987
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:11,120
my family's been christians for a

1988
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:13,760
thousand years

1989
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:15,280
he grew up in bethlehem which in which

1990
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:16,960
is in the palestinian territory which

1991
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:20,880
has been embargoed it's been

1992
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:24,159
life is very hard there um

1993
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:28,480
christians in the orthodox and

1994
01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:31,920
and you know the the syria iraq

1995
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:33,679
and those regions life has been very

1996
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,400
hard because of some of american foreign

1997
01:14:33,679 --> 01:14:37,360
policy

1998
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:39,120
this is not easy stuff and it's it's

1999
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:41,520
almost like a third rail though

2000
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,880
if you start to talk about america

2001
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:46,320
holding israel accountable

2002
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:49,440
on a policy level it immediately

2003
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:51,199
you know he invokes the you know the

2004
01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:53,199
penalty flag of

2005
01:14:51,199 --> 01:14:54,960
supporting you know i will bless those

2006
01:14:53,199 --> 01:14:58,400
who bless you god said to abram

2007
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:59,040
absolutely and i even mentioned the

2008
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,679
article

2009
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:02,560
one news story in which a currently

2010
01:15:01,679 --> 01:15:04,320
serving government

2011
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:05,760
official has cited dispensational

2012
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:08,640
theology

2013
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:09,040
as a basis for american national policy

2014
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:12,560
so

2015
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:16,880
this is not pie in the sky stuff um

2016
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:21,040
and i'll mention along with that

2017
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:24,560
the the ability of

2018
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:25,280
politicians across the spectrum to know

2019
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:27,360
what they

2020
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:29,040
need to say to get different people's

2021
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:31,520
votes

2022
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:33,040
and this is my personal view it's not

2023
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:36,239
the view of my institution

2024
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:38,400
it's my personal view because i've known

2025
01:15:36,239 --> 01:15:41,440
this going back 30 years

2026
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:43,760
of key political strategists

2027
01:15:41,440 --> 01:15:45,679
talking in these terms we know what we

2028
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:47,440
need to say

2029
01:15:45,679 --> 01:15:49,280
in order to get evangelical christians

2030
01:15:47,440 --> 01:15:52,560
to vote for us

2031
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:56,480
and and yet

2032
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:59,840
um we have to if we look at the old

2033
01:15:56,480 --> 01:16:04,080
testament law and see what is

2034
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:04,080
what is christian behavior like

2035
01:16:04,719 --> 01:16:09,760
it doesn't always match up with the

2036
01:16:07,199 --> 01:16:11,920
actual real world actions of

2037
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,040
of and i'm talking about politicians of

2038
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:14,960
every stripe so

2039
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:17,040
we need to be sly serpents innocent as

2040
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:19,440
doves and no

2041
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:21,600
uh know the times as it was said of the

2042
01:16:19,440 --> 01:16:24,719
sons of izakar

2043
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:26,880
wow it's it's uh

2044
01:16:24,719 --> 01:16:28,239
interesting to see all of the

2045
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:30,480
developments here and

2046
01:16:28,239 --> 01:16:31,440
and who wouldn't think of it initially

2047
01:16:30,480 --> 01:16:33,679
but just how

2048
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:35,360
influential dispensationalism has been

2049
01:16:33,679 --> 01:16:37,840
and continues to be

2050
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:39,679
even in even in american politics i mean

2051
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,840
it's all over the place

2052
01:16:39,679 --> 01:16:43,040
and who would have thought that uh from

2053
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:46,560
this this uh

2054
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:48,560
british guy back in the 19th century

2055
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,560
that they would have such a wide-ranging

2056
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:52,040
influence you asked me about these other

2057
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:54,000
developments you have progressive

2058
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:55,760
dispensationalism

2059
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:57,840
that said the people of god are one

2060
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:59,840
people the plan of god is one plan that

2061
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,920
was revolutionary

2062
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:03,360
and charles ryrie in his book

2063
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:04,719
dispensationalism today

2064
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:07,040
pretty much says those aren't

2065
01:17:04,719 --> 01:17:08,480
dispensationalists anymore

2066
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:10,159
and the fact that they call themselves

2067
01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:11,520
progressive dispensationalists

2068
01:17:10,159 --> 01:17:13,440
doesn't mean they're just getting with

2069
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:16,239
the times progressive it means

2070
01:17:13,440 --> 01:17:17,199
they see a progressively unfolding plan

2071
01:17:16,239 --> 01:17:18,719
in the scriptures

2072
01:17:17,199 --> 01:17:22,000
there's a separate chapter on that in

2073
01:17:18,719 --> 01:17:22,000
the covenant theology book

2074
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:26,400
there's another development that's come

2075
01:17:24,719 --> 01:17:28,640
on the heel uh sort of on the heels of

2076
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:30,480
that called new covenant theology

2077
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:32,719
which doesn't insist on a separate

2078
01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:36,800
program for israel

2079
01:17:32,719 --> 01:17:38,960
and and and and yet still resists

2080
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:41,040
the full degree full level of continuity

2081
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:44,480
between the old and new testaments

2082
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:46,159
that the reform of you takes

2083
01:17:44,480 --> 01:17:47,520
there's a separate article in new

2084
01:17:46,159 --> 01:17:51,600
covenant theology

2085
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:54,640
right but um it's like

2086
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:56,000
the the proverb of xena on the greek you

2087
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:58,320
know

2088
01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:00,000
greek philosophy said uh you know you

2089
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:03,840
can never get anywhere because once you

2090
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:06,960
go halfway you still have halfway to go

2091
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,719
and i think

2092
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:11,760
honestly if somebody would step back and

2093
01:18:08,719 --> 01:18:14,000
say why are these modifications

2094
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:16,159
happening from classic dispensationalism

2095
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:17,840
to progressive dispensationalism to new

2096
01:18:16,159 --> 01:18:18,960
covenant theology

2097
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,120
and now there's something called

2098
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:24,880
progressive covenantalism

2099
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:27,120
like it just continues to

2100
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,800
move toward more and more perceived

2101
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:30,640
continuity

2102
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:32,560
and and one thing that's helping this is

2103
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:34,320
actually seeing how pre-reformation

2104
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:37,840
people read the bible for a thousand

2105
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:39,679
fifteen hundred years um

2106
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:41,120
the one thing that still remains i think

2107
01:18:39,679 --> 01:18:43,840
that's gonna

2108
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:45,600
that's still holding people back is this

2109
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:46,400
idea of regenerate church membership

2110
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:50,560
which you can

2111
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:52,960
talk about about sacraments but but

2112
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:54,560
it is encouraging to see the the

2113
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,280
increasing degree of continuity

2114
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:57,920
people are seeing between the new

2115
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:01,520
testament

2116
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:03,040
and the old testament uh because of of

2117
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:05,840
of all things it can

2118
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:08,400
it it it enables us to preach the gospel

2119
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:11,120
from the old testament

2120
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,520
and it's not just the old testament was

2121
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:14,880
like

2122
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:16,640
the gospel and and and

2123
01:19:14,880 --> 01:19:18,480
you'll you'll this is probably one of

2124
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:18,960
your theme verses at christ the center

2125
01:19:18,480 --> 01:19:21,040
but

2126
01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:22,239
you know when they when they when they

2127
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,920
drank from the rock paul

2128
01:19:22,239 --> 01:19:26,640
says in uh in first corinthians 10 and

2129
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:28,000
when they

2130
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,400
ate the bread and when they were

2131
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:33,440
baptized and see they they drank

2132
01:19:30,400 --> 01:19:34,640
christ himself and this was of course

2133
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:38,640
edmond clowney's

2134
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:40,880
wonderful uh exposition

2135
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:43,040
in the unfolding mystery that it wasn't

2136
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:44,239
just some things that were like christ

2137
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:46,320
the shadows and types of the old

2138
01:19:44,239 --> 01:19:47,760
testament were just not only not like

2139
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:48,239
christ but they were the presence of

2140
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,239
christ

2141
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:51,840
before the incarnation yeah means of

2142
01:19:50,239 --> 01:19:54,000
grace

2143
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,280
and uh yeah and so we preach the gospel

2144
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,480
from the whole bible just like the

2145
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,800
apostles did

2146
01:19:56,480 --> 01:20:00,320
not just from the new testament amen i

2147
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:01,679
think that's a useful thing to think

2148
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:03,120
about especially

2149
01:20:01,679 --> 01:20:04,480
we mentioned earlier the confession of

2150
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:05,280
faith chapter seven but you look at

2151
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:06,880
chapter

2152
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:09,280
seven section five and then chapter

2153
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:10,800
eight section six talk exactly

2154
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:13,040
about those things which are which are

2155
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:14,800
key differences uh on certain points

2156
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:16,480
with dispensationalism

2157
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:18,239
it's been tremendous to think about this

2158
01:20:16,480 --> 01:20:20,239
and our approach to scripture helps us

2159
01:20:18,239 --> 01:20:21,920
all to become i think a little bit more

2160
01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:23,840
self-critical and think about our own

2161
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:25,600
presuppositions for minutically speaking

2162
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,520
but also theologically

2163
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:29,840
and to think about the ways in which

2164
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,800
sociology and psychology might influence

2165
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,199
our

2166
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:34,000
our or our theological choices as well

2167
01:20:33,199 --> 01:20:36,000
but this has been

2168
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:37,520
really useful i'd encourage people to

2169
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,520
take a look at the book uh

2170
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:41,280
covenant theology biblical theological

2171
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,560
and historical perspectives

2172
01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:44,320
i'll put a link to that in the episode

2173
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:46,320
description and particularly

2174
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:48,480
this chapter dispensationalism by your

2175
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:49,840
guest today michael glotto mike it's

2176
01:20:48,480 --> 01:20:50,239
been a pleasure thanks for joining me

2177
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:51,920
today

2178
01:20:50,239 --> 01:20:53,280
camden thank you so much god bless you

2179
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:55,600
and god bless your listeners

2180
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:57,280
absolutely uh take a look at rts you can

2181
01:20:55,600 --> 01:21:00,480
look at the orlando campus but

2182
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:03,280
the whole system over at rts.edu lots of

2183
01:21:00,480 --> 01:21:04,880
good going on there and you can stay

2184
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:07,040
tuned we're going to have a lot more

2185
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,880
conversations i hope with people

2186
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:11,239
speaking about different chapters within

2187
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,480
this book and we're online at

2188
01:21:11,239 --> 01:21:13,760
reformedforum.org

2189
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:15,679
where you'll find information about all

2190
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:17,360
of our programs and events and online

2191
01:21:15,679 --> 01:21:18,960
courses all that fun stuff

2192
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:21,120
i want to thank everybody for listening

2193
01:21:18,960 --> 01:21:29,040
we hope you join us again next time

2194
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:31,120
on christ the center

2195
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:31,120
you