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[Music]

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welcome to the Bible and theology

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matters podcast where we discuss all

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things Bible and theology because it

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matters what you really believe

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determines how you really behave now

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here's your host associate professor of

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Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological

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Seminary and professor of Bible and

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theology for the national theological

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college and graduate school Dr Paul

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Weaver

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good morning good afternoon good evening

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whatever time it is when you are

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listening or watching this podcast I'm

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your host Paul Weaver each week I have

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the wonderful privilege of leading

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conversations with Bible scholars and

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Bible expositors about all things Bible

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and Theology and this week is no

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exception what is unique though about

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this week's podcast is I have not just

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one or two Scholars on the program but

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nine Scholars and theologians who all

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have one or more earned doctorates and

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are all on the faculty of at least 12

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different dispensational colleges

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universities and seminaries most of them

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are full-time professors and like me are

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also adjunct professors for other

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dispensational schools several of them

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have been or are presently chairs Deans

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and presidents of the previously

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mentioned institutions in today's

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program we are going to be providing

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some constructive criticism of a

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recently released episode on the

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thinking and public podcast the host of

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this podcast is Dr Al Mohler the

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president of Southern Seminary in

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Louisville Kentucky if you're familiar

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with this program he interviews various

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authors about books that he believes are

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profound and or have a very significant

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contribution to evangelicalism and

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culture I find these conversations very

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interesting often insightful

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thought-provoking and usually extremely

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helpful I'm a regular listener and a big

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fan

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additionally I am personally very

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thankful for Dr mohler's Strong stance

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on the inerrancy of scripture his huge

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part in the conservative Resurgence of

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Southern Seminary and his willingness to

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take biblical stances on cultural issues

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in our world today that are not popular

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so it was very disheartening when I

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listened to Dr Mueller's interview which

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was released last week Wednesday August

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23rd 2023 the interview was with Dr

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Daniel Hummel the author of The recently

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released book the rise and fall of

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dispensationalism it was disturbing to

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me and many others because it was full

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of mischaracterizations generalizations

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straw man arguments guilt by association

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comments at times mocking and in other

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cases just ignorance regarding

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dispensationalism

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so in just one week's time at an

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incredibly busy time of the year when

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all of us are at the beginning of our

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semesters these gentlemen were willing

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to join me to discuss this subject

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because it was also disconcerting to

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them and important to them to set the

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record straight

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this podcast will not be going Point by

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point over Dr Hummel's book itself I do

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hope to do that at a later date or

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possibly in a book review

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but today's discussion will simply be a

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dialogue about statements made by DR Al

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Mohler and Dr Daniel Hummel about the

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contents of Dr Hummel's book the rise

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and fall of dispensationalism subtitled

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how the Evangelical battle for the end

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times shaped a nation

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because I have so many guests we do not

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have the time to give their full

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biographical information instead I will

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just mention their names in alphabetical

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order and the dispensational schools and

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institutions that they represent

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my first guest is Dr John altizer

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chairman and professor of biblical

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studies at the national theological

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College in graduate school which has

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campuses in Jordan Lebanon Egypt and

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East Africa

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my second guess is Dr Doug Bookman

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professor of Old and New Testament and

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Bible Exposition at Shepherds

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Theological Seminary and was formerly a

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professor at the Masters University

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my third guess is Dr Christopher Cohn

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former president of Tyndale Theological

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Seminary former president of Calvary

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University and current president of

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Colorado biblical University

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my fourth guest is Dr David Gunn

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associate professor of theology at

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Baptist Bible seminary in Clark Summit

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Pennsylvania and formerly the director

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of The Regular Baptist Press

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my fifth guest is Dr Scott Keane he is

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the academic dean of ethnos 360 Bible

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Institute online an instructor at Dallas

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Theological Seminary my sixth guest is

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Dr John Rinker he is the chair and

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associate professor of Bible and

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theology at Appalachian Bible College my

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seventh guest is Dr Charles Savelle

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assistant professor of Bible Exposition

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at Dallas Theological Seminary and

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formerly a professor at Southwestern

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Baptist Theological Seminary my eighth

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guest is Dr Mark snowberger he is the

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professor of systematic theology and

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apologetics at Detroit Baptist

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Theological Seminary my ninth guest is

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Dr Mike Stallard the former Dean and

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professor of systematic theology at

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Baptist Bible Seminary and currently

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vice president of International

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Ministries at the friends of Israel

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gospel Ministry he is also the founder

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and director of the Council on

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dispensational hermeneutics

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and of course I am Paul Weaver former

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executive dean of the word of Life

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hungry Bible Institute former academic

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dean of the word of Life Global Bible

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Institute which includes 10 accredited

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teaching sites around the world and

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currently associate professor of Bible

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Exposition at Dallas Theological

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Seminary gentlemen thank you for joining

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me for this special edition of The Bible

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and theology matters podcast

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we're going to be thinking in public

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about statements made by DR Al Mohler

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and Dr Daniel Hummel now as

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dispensationalists unfortunately we are

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all too accustomed to

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mischaracterizations and misinformation

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about dispensationalism

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it is not abnormal as Dr Charles ryrie

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wrote many of these accusations are as

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regular as a dripping faucet

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it is very easy to become defensive and

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respond in kind we're going to do our

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very best to be fair and respectful to

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both Dr Mohler and Dr Hummel but also be

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direct and truthful about problems

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logical fallacies and historical errors

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that we have identified in their

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thinking and arguments so with that

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being said let's begin to discuss some

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video clips of the exact words of Dr

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Mohler and Dr Hummel in context

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gentlemen as you know one of the most

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common accusations leveled against

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dispensationalists is that it is a

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novelty a new invention if you will let

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me play a clip of Dr Mohler speaking and

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then get your response for our listeners

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joining us on their favorite podcast

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platform you may want to tune in on our

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YouTube channel because we can we are

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showing the video clips of these

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conversations our YouTube channel is at

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Bible and theology matters

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just type in the YouTube browser at

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Bible and theology matters as an

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historical Theologian

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um

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you say all the way back in 200 years

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to an historical Theologian that's not

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very far back and that actually is I

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think the most surprising part of the

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story is that uh there there's virtually

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nothing like dispensational Christianity

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in the United States in any previous era

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you've got a lot of eschatological

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expectation you've got a lot of

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eschatological speculation but nothing

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like this is a system

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that's right Dr snowberger you recently

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wrote a chapter in the book that I

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discussed in last week's podcast

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entitled discovering dispensationalism

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subtitled tracing the development of

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dispensational thought from the first to

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the 21st century the entire book in my

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hand is seeking to respond to that

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talking point that that Mueller gave

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which is repeated Time and Time Again by

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Covenant theologians and I might add has

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been responded to time and time again

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would you share your thoughts on this

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issue

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well in some ways I think Dr Mohler is

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right

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um he there isn't a the the

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eschatological system distinctive to

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dispensationalism is hard to find as a

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system before Darby but I want to use

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his words right back at him as a

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historical Theologian 400 years isn't

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much longer it's kind of like an

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eight-year-old girl telling her

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six-year-old sister that she's in a tour

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but here's the thing

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um there isn't an unbroken system of

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eschatology among the reformed first it

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was all Millennial then it was

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post-millennial then after World War One

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some went back to all Millennial While

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others developed a whole new model

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called inaugurated eschatology

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which Henry and lad developed and then

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Dr Mohler adopted all the while calling

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dispensational pre-millennialism

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unprecedented in its day and I think

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it's high time we put an end to this

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you're too new to be true argument I I

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really think it's it's pointless

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I appreciate Mark your comments I think

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you're absolutely right I mean if uh I

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would say the Covenant guys you know the

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Roman Catholic Church would call you

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Johnny come lately in your theological

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views uh and so you need to have a

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little honesty about the Integrity about

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that question so I think they're they're

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off base there and I appreciate the work

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of William Watson and his book this has

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been say something before Darby uh and

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going back and uh you know he's with the

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Lord now and that's a great loss to us

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and I think 20 years from now I hope

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that this will be a silly argument I I

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think I've noticed there's been a change

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in the way they argue uh they first it's

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you know it originated with Darby and

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now it's more it's been systematized

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with Darby

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a little bit different twist a little

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bit like changing from global warming to

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climate change but there's not a whole

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lot of change in the actual argument and

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I think we need to get past that and I

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would the last thing I'd say I'd bring

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up irenaeus in the second century he has

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a very systematized or the most

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systematized understanding of the flow

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of History uh and uh he has everything

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but the preach FIB Rapture that we have

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and that goes back to the second century

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if you if you look at our Michael

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Horton's book introducing covenant

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theology he goes back with a couple of

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obscure statements about Covenant trying

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to find some rootedness in early ancient

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history for that and he doesn't have

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very much and so I think we have the

278
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,220
higher ground on that going back to the

279
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,200
ancient Church fathers

280
00:11:35,220 --> 00:11:40,560
yeah I would agree with everything that

281
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:43,079
Dr snowberger and staller just said I've

282
00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:46,380
always found it sort of fascinating that

283
00:11:43,079 --> 00:11:48,360
it's apparently okay for Martin Luther

284
00:11:46,380 --> 00:11:51,839
to formulate the doctrine of

285
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:53,640
justification solofide in the 1500s

286
00:11:51,839 --> 00:11:55,200
it's okay for the sin out of door to

287
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,200
formulate the Five Points of Calvinism

288
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,760
in the 1600s

289
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:02,279
covenant theology is also formulated in

290
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:05,160
the 1600s and then further refinement

291
00:12:02,279 --> 00:12:06,600
goes on throughout the 1700s but then

292
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:10,019
all of a sudden when you get to the

293
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,940
1800s and John Nelson Darby no more

294
00:12:10,019 --> 00:12:14,880
theological formulation or development

295
00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:17,399
is allowed to occur now why is that it

296
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,420
seems rather arbitrary to me

297
00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:20,160
but then if you just keep just keep

298
00:12:18,420 --> 00:12:21,959
going a little ways all of a sudden

299
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,360
theological development is is

300
00:12:21,959 --> 00:12:25,860
permissible again I've noticed for

301
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,920
example that many of those who level

302
00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:30,600
this charge against dispensationalism

303
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:33,240
never apply the same argument against

304
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,880
let's say ventilian presuppositionalism

305
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,019
which is developed about a century after

306
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,940
Darby

307
00:12:37,019 --> 00:12:42,120
so there does seem to be a certain

308
00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:43,860
amount of arbitrariness and a bit of a

309
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,079
double standard that tends to get

310
00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:48,899
applied in these discussions well Dr

311
00:12:46,079 --> 00:12:51,660
Muller says that dispensationalism is

312
00:12:48,899 --> 00:12:53,639
not simple enough there's another issue

313
00:12:51,660 --> 00:12:56,100
that he brings up he says it's not

314
00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:59,639
simple enough to be the legitimate

315
00:12:56,100 --> 00:13:02,339
understanding of scripture please listen

316
00:12:59,639 --> 00:13:05,279
in with me and I'll get your comments on

317
00:13:02,339 --> 00:13:07,260
the other side yeah the Theologian in me

318
00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:11,040
wants to stipulate up front that there

319
00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:13,560
are systems and there are systems and uh

320
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,420
most systems are rather fundamental and

321
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,860
simple

322
00:13:14,420 --> 00:13:19,380
uh you you could take covenant theology

323
00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:21,540
as an example uh there's a very simple

324
00:13:19,380 --> 00:13:23,760
and direct apprehension of covenant

325
00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:26,160
theology old Covenant New Covenant

326
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,500
continuity discontinuity

327
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,019
when you talk about dispensationalism

328
00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:33,660
you're talking about a system that that

329
00:13:31,019 --> 00:13:36,300
actually kind of Rivals medieval uh you

330
00:13:33,660 --> 00:13:38,639
know uh tomistic thought in its

331
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:42,300
complexity well I'm actually astounded

332
00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:45,060
by those comments uh you know I I taught

333
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:46,620
a course at Baptist Bible Seminary a

334
00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:49,680
dispensational school I taught a course

335
00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:51,240
on covenant theology uh and trying to

336
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:55,160
help dispensationalists understand it

337
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:57,959
and and I don't think uh it is a simple

338
00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:01,500
straightforward approach I just think

339
00:13:57,959 --> 00:14:03,240
that's uh really unusual to hear that if

340
00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:05,459
you read Michael Horton or you read

341
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,019
these other guys or even some of the

342
00:14:05,459 --> 00:14:10,560
things of RC Sproul that you actually

343
00:14:07,019 --> 00:14:12,720
Come Away with a simple understanding

344
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:15,360
and that it's easy to comprehend so I

345
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,720
simply reject the idea that they have a

346
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:21,300
simple model that's easy to grasp and I

347
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,040
do think dispensationalism is simple in

348
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:25,620
some ways and that accounts for its

349
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,540
growth in the United States I think

350
00:14:25,620 --> 00:14:30,660
through the scope fulfilled Bible

351
00:14:27,540 --> 00:14:32,820
and our hope magazine by uh Arnold C

352
00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:34,800
Gable and others it exploded across the

353
00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:36,660
United States and and people in the

354
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,820
churches were using the scope of I said

355
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:41,160
I now finally understand the Bible

356
00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:42,959
uh and so it was you know they were

357
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,760
having something that they could sink

358
00:14:42,959 --> 00:14:46,740
their teeth into not just the academic

359
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,560
Scholars with their abstractions

360
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:52,079
sometimes in a church I'll put up uh in

361
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,959
a message I'll put a Romans 8 up on the

362
00:14:52,079 --> 00:14:57,959
screen and read the end of Romans 8 from

363
00:14:54,959 --> 00:14:59,820
28 down to the 39 you know nothing will

364
00:14:57,959 --> 00:15:01,380
separate us from the love of Christ I

365
00:14:59,820 --> 00:15:02,820
said that's a clear promise isn't it and

366
00:15:01,380 --> 00:15:04,380
it's a clear promise there are a few

367
00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:05,519
hard things in those verses but it's a

368
00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:07,440
clear promise

369
00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,959
uh and then I go back and I put up the

370
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,040
end of Amos 9. and one day you're gonna

371
00:15:09,959 --> 00:15:13,260
uh

372
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,540
uh is talking to Israel you're going to

373
00:15:13,260 --> 00:15:16,260
be in your land never to be uprooted

374
00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:18,480
again

375
00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:20,339
what's hard to understand about that

376
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,500
if you take a grammatical historical

377
00:15:20,339 --> 00:15:25,860
understanding of the scriptures we can

378
00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:28,320
understand those things and I I think uh

379
00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:31,740
it's hubris to kind of talk in this way

380
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,540
so I would just caution those who uh who

381
00:15:31,740 --> 00:15:36,480
listen to this kind of thing go back and

382
00:15:33,540 --> 00:15:39,420
read you know ryrie was called a

383
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,220
simpleton by the Covenant guides

384
00:15:39,420 --> 00:15:44,220
and now they're almost talking the

385
00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:46,260
opposite that's a problem with me

386
00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:48,899
yes on the other hand it's interesting

387
00:15:46,260 --> 00:15:52,320
that you just consider the nature of the

388
00:15:48,899 --> 00:15:54,540
author of the scriptures uh our God

389
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,980
describes himself as having infinite

390
00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:58,380
understanding

391
00:15:55,980 --> 00:16:00,300
and yet he's revealed himself in the

392
00:15:58,380 --> 00:16:02,940
human language to His Image bearers over

393
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:04,079
1400 years three languages 40 plus

394
00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:07,760
authors

395
00:16:04,079 --> 00:16:10,139
and so actually perhaps we should expect

396
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,839
a diversity

397
00:16:10,139 --> 00:16:15,660
and a complexity to the Revelation which

398
00:16:12,839 --> 00:16:18,540
is nevertheless coherent

399
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:21,800
because our God is Not contradictory he

400
00:16:18,540 --> 00:16:26,399
is coherent he does have a grand story

401
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:28,079
so in fact the uh the nature of our

402
00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:33,980
divine author

403
00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:35,820
perhaps invites us to not expect

404
00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:39,000
simplicity

405
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:42,060
but rather a complexity but is

406
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:45,420
nevertheless coherent that we can know

407
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:47,820
and understand Paul I'd love to add I I

408
00:16:45,420 --> 00:16:48,899
think there's a rhetorical issue here as

409
00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:53,420
well

410
00:16:48,899 --> 00:16:58,160
the premise is that Simplicity is better

411
00:16:53,420 --> 00:17:01,620
and uh as Dr rinkers just Illustrated

412
00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:04,500
Simplicity is not necessarily better and

413
00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:07,919
I think a lot of times we we find

414
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:10,380
ourselves trapped accepting premises and

415
00:17:07,919 --> 00:17:11,939
playing defense when we can really get

416
00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:13,620
into some of the rhetoric that's

417
00:17:11,939 --> 00:17:16,679
happening uh that sounds really

418
00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:18,419
convincing but I don't accept the

419
00:17:16,679 --> 00:17:22,919
premise that it's better to have

420
00:17:18,419 --> 00:17:25,919
Simplicity uh but I also agree with Dr

421
00:17:22,919 --> 00:17:29,100
staller that that dispensationalism is

422
00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:33,240
simple enough for uh grade school kids

423
00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:35,039
to understand it uh and the anecdotal uh

424
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:38,400
kind of rhetorical device that's being

425
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:42,360
used here is is maybe helpful to

426
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:44,520
illustrate that uh we might go a little

427
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:47,640
bit deeper in thinking uh through this

428
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,900
argument as Dr staller and Dr Rinker

429
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,539
have

430
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:55,140
all right so I noticed a couple of

431
00:17:51,539 --> 00:17:57,480
problems with Mueller's comments here

432
00:17:55,140 --> 00:18:00,660
uh first of all he makes this comment

433
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:03,780
several times about how very complex and

434
00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:05,820
convoluted dispensationalism is but he

435
00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:07,440
doesn't really explain what he means by

436
00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:10,260
that I I would have loved it if he had

437
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:13,500
actually tabulated what that complexity

438
00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:16,380
consists of uh but he doesn't

439
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:17,940
if I had to guess just inferring from

440
00:18:16,380 --> 00:18:20,340
some of the other comments that he makes

441
00:18:17,940 --> 00:18:21,960
throughout the discussion uh he might

442
00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:24,780
have things like Clarence Larkin's

443
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,940
charts in mind there maybe the precise

444
00:18:24,780 --> 00:18:29,940
delineation of seven specific

445
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:32,100
dispensations or uh maybe even specific

446
00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:33,840
interpretations of certain prophecies or

447
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,880
something like that

448
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,740
and if that is what Dr Mueller has in

449
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,900
mind when he makes these comments I I

450
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:43,500
think he's really comparing apples and

451
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:45,000
oranges because those things are not the

452
00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:47,940
definition or the essence of

453
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:51,179
dispensationalism at this system's level

454
00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:54,059
those things are outcomes exegetical

455
00:18:51,179 --> 00:18:56,179
outcomes doctrinal conclusions that have

456
00:18:54,059 --> 00:18:58,559
flowed from a dispensationalist system

457
00:18:56,179 --> 00:19:01,320
but those things are not the essence of

458
00:18:58,559 --> 00:19:02,520
dispensationalism itself and it seems to

459
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,440
me that what he's doing is he is

460
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,600
comparing those outcomes which are

461
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,760
necessarily going to be more complex

462
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,799
because they're dealing with the entire

463
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,860
scope of Revelation and the entire scope

464
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:16,559
of of systematic theology he's comparing

465
00:19:13,860 --> 00:19:19,320
those with the simple essence of his

466
00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:21,240
system covenant theology so there is a

467
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,280
bit of an apples and oranges problem

468
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,260
going on there

469
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,600
um I think if you were to deal with

470
00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:28,500
dispensationalism at a simple systems

471
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,480
level

472
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:33,000
it can be defined in a relatively

473
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,799
straightforward simple way Charles ryrie

474
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,799
did that in his book dispensationalism

475
00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:40,860
he defined it in three fairly simple

476
00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:42,660
straightforward points in four pages so

477
00:19:40,860 --> 00:19:45,960
that is not terribly complex in my

478
00:19:42,660 --> 00:19:47,760
opinion and later dispensationalists

479
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,080
have even debated whether or not the

480
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,880
third of Riley's points is even

481
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,160
absolutely essential to the Integrity of

482
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,080
the system so if you were to compare

483
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,559
apples and apples I I'm not sure

484
00:19:55,080 --> 00:20:01,080
Muller's argument here would stand

485
00:19:58,559 --> 00:20:04,980
uh but the second problem that occurs to

486
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:07,140
me is that uh even if I we grant for the

487
00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:09,480
sake of argument a part of that premise

488
00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:12,000
but having said that even if you accept

489
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,000
that premise Simplicity would not be the

490
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,220
only measure by which you would assess a

491
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,840
theological system you would also want

492
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:21,780
to consider other factors like

493
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,820
explanatory scope how much of the

494
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:27,059
pertinent data is explained by the

495
00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:28,919
system and congruity that's how well

496
00:20:27,059 --> 00:20:30,960
does the system mesh with the actual

497
00:20:28,919 --> 00:20:34,380
details of the data that it's attempting

498
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:36,480
to describe or explain and I would make

499
00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:39,140
the case that dispensationalism actually

500
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:42,840
scores far far higher on both of those

501
00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:44,160
points than covenant theology does I

502
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,080
think a little bit later on we're going

503
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,960
to talk about the metanarrative of

504
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,640
scripture and how dispensationalism does

505
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,200
a much better job explaining the

506
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,900
scriptural metanarrative than covenant

507
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,940
theology does that's explanatory scope

508
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:59,340
and I would make the case that

509
00:20:56,940 --> 00:21:02,039
dispensationalism has a much easier time

510
00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:03,660
dealing with the actual textual details

511
00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:05,940
in a whole multitude of biblical

512
00:21:03,660 --> 00:21:07,980
passages especially when we're dealing

513
00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:12,900
with eschatological or covenantal

514
00:21:07,980 --> 00:21:14,760
passages and so even if you concede that

515
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:17,220
dispensationalism perhaps is slightly

516
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,660
more complex at the system's level and

517
00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:20,460
you could make that concession I guess

518
00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:21,900
having two peoples of God is technically

519
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:23,419
more complex than having one people

520
00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:26,880
people of God

521
00:21:23,419 --> 00:21:28,919
nevertheless I I think it does so much

522
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,480
better than covenant theology on some of

523
00:21:28,919 --> 00:21:33,000
these other points by which you would

524
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,760
assess a system that it more than makes

525
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,559
up for that perceived deficiency

526
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,120
I know we're going to come back and look

527
00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,880
at the story of scripture and how it

528
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:44,100
relates to this but in this context

529
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,419
you know I look at this and and if I'm

530
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,760
reading this from a covenant

531
00:21:45,419 --> 00:21:50,039
theologian's perspective and I start in

532
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:53,280
Genesis 1 and I'm tracing the storyline

533
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:56,100
I have these expectations of what God is

534
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,200
going to do with and through Israel then

535
00:21:56,100 --> 00:22:00,840
I get to the gospels and if I take a

536
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,860
covenant perspective I have to pause the

537
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,820
story go back and redefine Israel

538
00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:07,980
because you know they're going to

539
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:09,900
replace Israel with the church I have to

540
00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:12,539
go back and clarify the whole back story

541
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:15,240
versus a simplistic reading of scripture

542
00:22:12,539 --> 00:22:17,100
when I'm following the text I have these

543
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,500
expectations that God is going to do

544
00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:21,900
things with and through Israel those

545
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:24,000
things are put on hold because of

546
00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:26,340
Israel's rejection of Messiah and

547
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,919
they're resumed in the future so I think

548
00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:30,179
a simple reading of scripture or a clear

549
00:22:28,919 --> 00:22:31,740
reading the scripture is going to take

550
00:22:30,179 --> 00:22:33,480
us there and it's actually not so

551
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:35,760
difficult not as difficult as what I

552
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,220
have to go back and re-explain from a

553
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,500
covenant theologian's perspective

554
00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:43,140
very good and so historical grammatical

555
00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:45,000
literal is important terminology we use

556
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:47,039
and when we talk about literal we're not

557
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,659
talking about we're not saying that we

558
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:50,400
don't believe in figures of speech or

559
00:22:48,659 --> 00:22:52,860
symbols but we're trying to understand

560
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,360
what the original author under the

561
00:22:52,860 --> 00:22:55,980
directional holy spirit is seeking to

562
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:59,340
communicate to the original recipients

563
00:22:55,980 --> 00:23:01,620
in the normal plain language but using

564
00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:04,260
figures of speech and metaphors but not

565
00:23:01,620 --> 00:23:05,940
trying to find something deeper but

566
00:23:04,260 --> 00:23:09,059
authorial intent is a big part of that

567
00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:11,100
isn't it 18 minutes into the program and

568
00:23:09,059 --> 00:23:14,159
almost one third of the way into it Dr

569
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:16,740
Mohler asks Dr Hummel to provide a

570
00:23:14,159 --> 00:23:19,260
definition of dispensationalism we're

571
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:21,179
going to listen to that dialogue now but

572
00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:23,900
I would like our viewers and listeners

573
00:23:21,179 --> 00:23:26,820
to take note that Dr Hummel does not

574
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:29,940
define dispensationalism but rather

575
00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:33,120
gives what he calls for what he

576
00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:35,820
identifies as four of seven aspects of

577
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:39,299
dispensationalism so he he provides four

578
00:23:35,820 --> 00:23:43,020
of those also note that Dr roller jumps

579
00:23:39,299 --> 00:23:45,659
in and unfortunately mockingly and with

580
00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:47,520
the laugh again trying to be simple he

581
00:23:45,659 --> 00:23:49,320
says trying to be simple you have seven

582
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,200
definitions but that's not what he said

583
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:55,020
at all right he he said seven aspects so

584
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,520
let's listen to that video clip and get

585
00:23:55,020 --> 00:23:58,559
your comment watch the video clip and

586
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,600
get your comment on the other end um a

587
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:03,240
definition of dispensationalism I give

588
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,520
in the introduction to the book uh seven

589
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,140
different uh sort of aspects of the

590
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,059
system of dispensationalism I think I'll

591
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:11,100
reduce that again again trying to be

592
00:24:09,059 --> 00:24:12,299
simple you have seven definitions that's

593
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:14,940
right that's right

594
00:24:12,299 --> 00:24:17,400
um but uh we mentioned it a bit so

595
00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:19,679
dispensationalism is uh the term itself

596
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:22,080
comes from the dispensations that

597
00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:24,120
dispensations divide all of uh history

598
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,039
into all of time into and these

599
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,960
dispensations map somewhat onto

600
00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,480
different covenantal agreements God

601
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,299
makes with um with the Patriarchs and

602
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,039
and others but I think the key is that

603
00:24:33,299 --> 00:24:36,900
for someone like Darby who believed in

604
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:40,080
seven dispensations which is the most

605
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:41,460
common number uh we currently live in

606
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,080
the sixth dispensation or the

607
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:45,000
dispensation of Grace or sometimes

608
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,580
called the church age which is a pretty

609
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,559
unique dispensation among the uh among

610
00:24:47,580 --> 00:24:52,380
the seven dispensations the other six

611
00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:54,840
are God really working through the

612
00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:57,179
people of Israel to redeem the world to

613
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,159
make right what was put wrong

614
00:24:57,179 --> 00:25:01,740
um but in the church age uh he is

615
00:24:59,159 --> 00:25:04,679
working with the church with the the the

616
00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:07,080
um uh the Misti The Mystery of the of

617
00:25:04,679 --> 00:25:09,780
the Old Testament and so a lot of the

618
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,240
rules that um sort of govern God's

619
00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:13,679
relationship with Humanity during those

620
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,900
other ages have a have a slightly

621
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:18,240
different play in in the church age but

622
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,320
that's one big part of of the system is

623
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,720
that there are these distinct

624
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,640
dispensations that give you a sense of

625
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,559
how God deals with Humanity in each

626
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,179
dispensation then there is the

627
00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:29,100
eschatology which is sort of what's

628
00:25:27,179 --> 00:25:30,840
going to happen between the sixth and

629
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,820
seventh dispensation the seventh one

630
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,679
would be the millennial Kingdom and that

631
00:25:32,820 --> 00:25:35,940
is where a lot of focus has been on a

632
00:25:34,679 --> 00:25:37,679
lot of thousands of books have been

633
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:39,720
written about sort of what's going to

634
00:25:37,679 --> 00:25:40,799
unfold at the end of this age and that's

635
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,600
where the teaching of an imminent

636
00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:45,059
Rapture comes in and this is God taking

637
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,760
away the church removing the church from

638
00:25:45,059 --> 00:25:50,760
the Earth to resume his dealings with

639
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,500
Humanity through Israel and uh there's a

640
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,860
seven age or seven year tribulation

641
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:57,299
which gets a lot of focus

642
00:25:55,860 --> 00:25:58,980
um and and then there's the millennial

643
00:25:57,299 --> 00:25:59,940
Kingdom and then there's the final

644
00:25:58,980 --> 00:26:01,740
Judgment at the end so there's the

645
00:25:59,940 --> 00:26:03,179
eschatology as well

646
00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:04,980
um and then there's finally uh this will

647
00:26:03,179 --> 00:26:07,080
be the third one I'll say is a

648
00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:10,200
hermeneutic that has changed over time

649
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:12,360
so when Darby was developing his his

650
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,039
ideas Darby was not what we call a

651
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,840
literalist which often gets associated

652
00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:17,460
with dispensationalism today as a sort

653
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,380
of plain reading or a historical

654
00:26:17,460 --> 00:26:21,840
grammatical reading of the text Darby

655
00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:24,659
with anything but he was a very uh

656
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:27,000
opaque uh dizzying reader he saw

657
00:26:24,659 --> 00:26:30,000
typologies on almost every page of the

658
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,860
Bible and and dozens of them sometimes

659
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,120
um and and actually Scofield did as well

660
00:26:31,860 --> 00:26:34,440
there's hundreds of footnotes in

661
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,659
schofield's Bible about around

662
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,940
typologies well typologies get you in

663
00:26:36,659 --> 00:26:40,520
all types of interesting situations as

664
00:26:38,940 --> 00:26:42,900
you're reading so later

665
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:46,080
dispensationalists really try to tie

666
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:48,299
their system to a a plain or literal

667
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,460
reading of the Bible and

668
00:26:48,299 --> 00:26:52,559
um and this is this aligns with a very

669
00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:54,299
high view of the Bible and a view of the

670
00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:55,200
inerrancy of the Bible and so those

671
00:26:54,299 --> 00:26:57,779
things often go together for

672
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,640
dispensationalists but they become one

673
00:26:57,779 --> 00:27:00,960
of the key sort of Defenders of a

674
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,419
literal reading of the text and

675
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,640
particularly the prophetic uh uh books

676
00:27:03,419 --> 00:27:06,960
of the Bible and the apocalyptic uh Book

677
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,340
of Revelation

678
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,500
um and then they become sort of the the

679
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:12,419
the uh the agenda Setters in some ways

680
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,820
at least for the broader Church on

681
00:27:12,419 --> 00:27:16,440
reading those uh books uh literally so

682
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:19,320
those are some aspects of the system

683
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,419
there are others as well including uh a

684
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,520
part of their soteriology or their view

685
00:27:21,419 --> 00:27:25,620
of what it means to be saved that get

686
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,240
them into a number of controversies as

687
00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:29,400
well particularly with more reformed

688
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,860
theologians over the decades well having

689
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,900
reviewed this video in context gentlemen

690
00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:36,240
give me your thoughts it seems to me

691
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:39,960
that what they're trying to do

692
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:42,960
in the issue of definition is make a

693
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,000
dispensationalism just a grab bag of a

694
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,279
few things and they're reaching in the

695
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,960
bag and pulling out one at a time and

696
00:27:47,279 --> 00:27:50,940
dealing with those and they're and

697
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,279
there's there's a disconnectedness of

698
00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:55,740
those things and of course that's not at

699
00:27:53,279 --> 00:27:57,539
all what most of us Believe In terms you

700
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:59,880
know I hold to ryrie synthesis I think

701
00:27:57,539 --> 00:28:02,460
it's a good one uh and there's a

702
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:04,640
connectedness to all those things and

703
00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:07,620
it's and we need to understand too that

704
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,740
dispensationalism is not defined by

705
00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:13,320
dispensations

706
00:28:09,740 --> 00:28:15,600
uh Charles Hodge had dispensations every

707
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Covenant Theologian since Calvin has had

708
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,640
dispensations that's not the issue uh we

709
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,640
do have them they're part of ryrie's

710
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:27,059
doxological theme uh unifying the Bible

711
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,100
uh they're there but the essence is not

712
00:28:27,059 --> 00:28:30,960
that the essence is grammatical

713
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:32,880
historical interpretation that leads to

714
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,779
a distinction between Israel and the

715
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:39,120
church uh and so we hover around ryrie

716
00:28:36,779 --> 00:28:41,700
in terms of definitions and I wonder you

717
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,860
know what if we ask them to push it you

718
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:45,600
know how do you define covenant theology

719
00:28:43,860 --> 00:28:48,000
and in their movement I bet we could

720
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,559
pull out a bunch of grab bag stuff and

721
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,840
put it in a bag and pull it out and talk

722
00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:54,120
about it the same way and I'm not sure

723
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,820
they would be happy about that now the

724
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,260
list I saw uh of some of the things they

725
00:28:56,820 --> 00:29:00,900
talked about one of them I wanted to

726
00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:03,120
mention is this of the hermeneutic

727
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,740
changing over time

728
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,120
and I wanted to address that and

729
00:29:04,740 --> 00:29:08,640
especially

730
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,919
bringing up typology

731
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,980
and I know I did my PhD dissertation on

732
00:29:10,919 --> 00:29:15,299
rnoc Gable line and his typology was

733
00:29:13,980 --> 00:29:17,520
very extreme

734
00:29:15,299 --> 00:29:19,260
and if we take away his typology then

735
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,580
pretty much what's left is what you and

736
00:29:19,260 --> 00:29:23,100
I believe

737
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:26,159
okay give or take

738
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:28,200
um so dispensationalism did shed some of

739
00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:30,179
the typology of earlier days

740
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,260
but at the same time all of

741
00:29:30,179 --> 00:29:35,820
evangelicalism had a broader typology

742
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:37,380
all of the evangelicalism was struggling

743
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:39,419
with those things and there was a

744
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:40,740
correction so there's a shift in

745
00:29:39,419 --> 00:29:43,260
hermeneutics along those lines

746
00:29:40,740 --> 00:29:44,820
throughout all of the evangelicalism and

747
00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:46,980
dispensates them to just part of that

748
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:49,740
stream and so I think it's a little much

749
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:52,039
to pull that out and use it to try to be

750
00:29:49,740 --> 00:29:55,140
a little bit critical of

751
00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:57,179
dispensationalism sensationalism is not

752
00:29:55,140 --> 00:30:00,779
necessarily a certain view of

753
00:29:57,179 --> 00:30:03,840
soteriology for example he noted a view

754
00:30:00,779 --> 00:30:06,539
of soteriology that gets them in

755
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,480
conflict with reformed theologians

756
00:30:06,539 --> 00:30:11,460
but one can be a dispensationalist and

757
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,860
believe in a free Grace theology

758
00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:16,320
position one can be a dispensational

759
00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:19,640
theologian and believe in Calvinism yeah

760
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:22,919
I was quite shocked by Dr Hummel's uh

761
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:25,020
reference to that being one of the seven

762
00:30:22,919 --> 00:30:26,940
he gave he listed four in that video

763
00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:30,000
clip and he develops even further in the

764
00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:33,360
book that he lumps free Grace theology

765
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,279
as part of dispensationalism and while

766
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,740
many on this group

767
00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:39,960
um May uh be happy to hold that title

768
00:30:37,740 --> 00:30:43,320
myself included there are others that

769
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:45,360
aren't and and that's not uh put you in

770
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,419
or out of dispensationalism that's

771
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,760
definitely not a defining Mark

772
00:30:47,419 --> 00:30:52,559
obviously chafer was a well-known

773
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,360
dispensationalist and Riri was a

774
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:56,520
well-known dispensationalist and and

775
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,679
ryrie was a free Grace Theologian but

776
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,080
you can't just conflate those two and

777
00:30:58,679 --> 00:31:04,320
say dispensationalists are all free

778
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:06,899
Grace regarding the free Grace Point I I

779
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:10,159
found that very fascinating that Dr

780
00:31:06,899 --> 00:31:14,100
Hummel included that in his definition

781
00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:16,740
of dispensationalism as you said Dr

782
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:18,720
Weaver that that is far from a part of

783
00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:21,899
the essence of the dispensationalist

784
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,539
system in fact in my estimation the

785
00:31:21,899 --> 00:31:26,340
ongoing disagreement between proponents

786
00:31:24,539 --> 00:31:29,059
of lordship Salvation and free Grace

787
00:31:26,340 --> 00:31:31,440
theology is probably one of the biggest

788
00:31:29,059 --> 00:31:34,080
disagreements within the camp of

789
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,659
dispensationalism so clearly that cannot

790
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,640
be a defining aspect of

791
00:31:36,659 --> 00:31:41,220
dispensationalism

792
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,559
the analogous claim would perhaps be to

793
00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:46,020
say that oh a lot of reformed guys are

794
00:31:43,559 --> 00:31:48,179
all millennialists or oh a lot of

795
00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:50,700
reformed guys are Pato Baptists and

796
00:31:48,179 --> 00:31:53,100
therefore we will Define reformed

797
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:55,080
theology as being essentially a

798
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:56,520
millennial or or Pato Baptist which

799
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,740
obviously wouldn't be true because

800
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,320
there's lots of guys like Dr Muller who

801
00:31:58,740 --> 00:32:04,620
are both pre-mill and Credo Baptist and

802
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:07,080
hold to the reformed system so uh I I

803
00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:09,539
agree with you Dr Weaver I think this

804
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,580
this surfaces uh perhaps a bit of

805
00:32:09,539 --> 00:32:15,179
sloppiness in the research but that does

806
00:32:11,580 --> 00:32:17,760
seem like a massive uh Miss in terms of

807
00:32:15,179 --> 00:32:19,740
characterizing and defining the system

808
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,440
that he's writing about my simple

809
00:32:19,740 --> 00:32:23,840
explanation of dispensationalism because

810
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,760
I do believe that you can state

811
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,799
dispensationalism in just a few words or

812
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,539
you can spend hours unpacking it because

813
00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:32,220
it really involves that grand Narrative

814
00:32:30,539 --> 00:32:34,620
of scripture as I see it

815
00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:37,320
dispensationalism is an understanding of

816
00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:40,320
human history as recorded in the Bible

817
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,720
regarding the plan hands of God in the

818
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,600
past in the present and in the future

819
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,179
and that flows out of a plain reading of

820
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,399
scripture it's not a system per se that

821
00:32:48,179 --> 00:32:52,740
we want to impose upon the scriptures

822
00:32:50,399 --> 00:32:55,140
but we believe that God is the author of

823
00:32:52,740 --> 00:32:57,899
language and he has revealed himself in

824
00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:59,940
a way that we can understand and using

825
00:32:57,899 --> 00:33:02,220
the natural laws of communication well

826
00:32:59,940 --> 00:33:05,039
Dr Cohn I know that you spent a lot of

827
00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:08,340
time researching and writing in the area

828
00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:10,799
of epistemology how how we know what we

829
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:12,659
know and the methodology we employ as it

830
00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:15,120
relates to the interpretation of

831
00:33:12,659 --> 00:33:18,120
scripture please share your thoughts on

832
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,580
my description maybe you would add to it

833
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,460
and develop it but how do you see that

834
00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:26,880
as contrasted to what Hummel presented

835
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:29,100
and what Mueller seems to understand

836
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,820
well no surprise to you I love your

837
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:33,840
definition it is it is very concise

838
00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:36,840
straightforward and it doesn't put you

839
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,940
in a position to have to defend many

840
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,559
specifics that aren't germane to the

841
00:33:38,940 --> 00:33:43,140
discussion so I think it's an excellent

842
00:33:40,559 --> 00:33:44,779
definition and it's biblically

843
00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:47,820
defensible

844
00:33:44,779 --> 00:33:49,740
and this is really the key issue I think

845
00:33:47,820 --> 00:33:52,440
as it's been mentioned a few times

846
00:33:49,740 --> 00:33:54,899
already the difference in these two

847
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:58,799
definitions or these two perceptions of

848
00:33:54,899 --> 00:34:01,679
definitions is one of pedigree uh the

849
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:05,700
the the the Covenant Theologian is

850
00:34:01,679 --> 00:34:09,659
generally uh working with uh uh

851
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:11,940
historical theology as part of its Canon

852
00:34:09,659 --> 00:34:16,200
and so the pedigree of Covenant and

853
00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:19,500
reformed theology is this this great uh

854
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:21,480
Corpus of uh of historical theology

855
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:24,260
there's a lot there

856
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:27,780
uh we see time and time again

857
00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:30,720
that uh historical theology brought in

858
00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:33,060
as part of the methodology and frankly

859
00:34:30,720 --> 00:34:35,460
the most clear communication of that is

860
00:34:33,060 --> 00:34:38,300
found in the Catholic catechism uh that

861
00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:41,879
you you shall interpret the text uh

862
00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:46,320
through the church so the church Capital

863
00:34:41,879 --> 00:34:49,320
C and uh reform theology carries that

864
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:52,139
pedigree brings that same methodology

865
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,960
and if one doubts that just look at

866
00:34:52,139 --> 00:34:56,700
Calvin's institutes the only discussion

867
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,339
he has in the institutes about

868
00:34:56,700 --> 00:35:01,619
hermeneutics is specifically talking

869
00:34:59,339 --> 00:35:04,380
about this historical theology model van

870
00:35:01,619 --> 00:35:06,920
till did the same same thing so when

871
00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:10,800
they're addressing epistemology

872
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:13,560
covenant theology is is not dealing with

873
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,619
hermeneutics as part of the methodology

874
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,619
on the other hand

875
00:35:15,619 --> 00:35:21,260
dispensationalists absolutely are

876
00:35:18,619 --> 00:35:25,079
we're understanding has this been said

877
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:28,920
several times in several ways that the

878
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:31,500
conclusions we draw are based on the

879
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,300
plain reading of scripture as you as you

880
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:35,339
phrased it here the plain reading of

881
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:37,440
scripture what what are the nouns and

882
00:35:35,339 --> 00:35:38,640
verbs normally mean in the context in

883
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,040
the time they're written we call it

884
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,380
grammatical historical I like to call it

885
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,880
the literal grammatical historical uh

886
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:48,000
but it's the plain sense it's how we

887
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,520
communicate every day within context so

888
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:54,119
uh the pedigree for dispensational

889
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:57,060
thinkers is to look at scripture and

890
00:35:54,119 --> 00:36:00,740
allow the text to guide and govern the

891
00:35:57,060 --> 00:36:04,500
theology so the pedigree is is is

892
00:36:00,740 --> 00:36:09,440
ideally text first biblical text first

893
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:14,339
uh now when when you look at a

894
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:16,020
Hummel's presentation as uh Mike

895
00:36:14,339 --> 00:36:19,260
referred to it as kind of this grab bag

896
00:36:16,020 --> 00:36:21,500
approach uh they're they're reading

897
00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:24,599
dispensationalism through the pedigree

898
00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:27,180
of that that historical theology so that

899
00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:29,880
all they see is the disconnect and and

900
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:32,099
these various doctrines where uh we're

901
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:36,060
able to look at this and see how it

902
00:36:32,099 --> 00:36:38,820
derived from scripture uh yeah and avoid

903
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:41,339
the theological conclusions instead

904
00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:43,440
trying to have exegetical ones and of

905
00:36:41,339 --> 00:36:45,440
course uh we all have to grow we all

906
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,839
have to be more consistent but I think

907
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,940
ryrie was focused on that uh clearly

908
00:36:48,839 --> 00:36:54,119
stated and I think your definition is

909
00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:56,339
absolutely on point because it does that

910
00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:59,280
one of the points often a point of

911
00:36:56,339 --> 00:37:01,740
mockery by Covenant theologians of us is

912
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,599
our charts dispensationalists are famous

913
00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:07,140
for their charts to discuss the

914
00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:10,440
outworking of God's administrations and

915
00:37:07,140 --> 00:37:13,200
dispensations from one era to the next

916
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,660
and Hummel and Molar a mentioned a man

917
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,599
by the name of Clarence Larkin who

918
00:37:15,660 --> 00:37:21,060
Hummel points out is an engineer by

919
00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:23,339
trade by the way that was a bit of a

920
00:37:21,060 --> 00:37:26,099
disparaging comment in other words he's

921
00:37:23,339 --> 00:37:29,820
just a novice not an educated scholar

922
00:37:26,099 --> 00:37:32,220
and he adds that Darby was a lawyer not

923
00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:35,760
an educated scholar so let's listen to

924
00:37:32,220 --> 00:37:37,740
Hummel on this point and get your take

925
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,960
on it one way to even just think about

926
00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:41,700
this is the famous prophecy charts that

927
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,099
Clarence Larkin in particular

928
00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:45,960
popularized all in the early 20th

929
00:37:44,099 --> 00:37:47,520
century and if you if you zoom back you

930
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,920
don't look at the details they look like

931
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,619
uh instruments in a lab or something

932
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,599
like that they're drawn in a way uh that

933
00:37:52,619 --> 00:37:57,359
really sort of tries to show the the

934
00:37:54,599 --> 00:37:59,040
modernity or the scientific value of the

935
00:37:57,359 --> 00:38:00,660
dispensationalist system and it's no

936
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,119
accident that people like Larkin were

937
00:38:00,660 --> 00:38:04,440
engineers by training Darby was a lawyer

938
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:06,420
and you can see there's sort of a

939
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,400
professional appeal also to the

940
00:38:06,420 --> 00:38:10,920
systematization that's happening Dr

941
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:14,040
Stalag you were an aerospace engineer

942
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,660
for eight years prior to be called being

943
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,940
called into the ministry would you like

944
00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:20,099
to respond to Hummel's point that

945
00:38:17,940 --> 00:38:22,339
dispensationalism was produced by

946
00:38:20,099 --> 00:38:25,320
engineers and lawyers not trained

947
00:38:22,339 --> 00:38:27,780
theologians yeah he was was a little bit

948
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,660
disparaging there on that point and I

949
00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:32,339
and frankly uh I've known a lot of

950
00:38:30,660 --> 00:38:34,579
Engineers who've been called into the

951
00:38:32,339 --> 00:38:37,800
ministry and um

952
00:38:34,579 --> 00:38:39,420
they've done well I think

953
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,520
but he forgets to mention something

954
00:38:39,420 --> 00:38:43,800
about Clarence Larkin Clarence Larkin

955
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,200
pastored for over 20 years

956
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:49,500
he was 20 years a pastor in Northeast

957
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:51,540
Philadelphia I've been in that church

958
00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:54,920
and they've got a plaque up to him there

959
00:38:51,540 --> 00:38:57,480
and I go well he's a writer he studied

960
00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:00,300
and he wrote more than just prophecy

961
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:03,180
things uh and so they're totally leaving

962
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:05,160
that part out I devoured uh

963
00:39:03,180 --> 00:39:07,440
dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkin

964
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,359
the first year I was a Christian I

965
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,599
understand there was kind of excitement

966
00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:15,180
about those things but the the charts

967
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:18,359
need to be studied but they also give a

968
00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:21,720
form around which you can clarify things

969
00:39:18,359 --> 00:39:25,140
so that's the point of charts and so

970
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:27,240
it'll certainly uh overdone and and let

971
00:39:25,140 --> 00:39:29,579
me tell you bb Warfield has some charts

972
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:32,760
in his book The Plan of Salvation

973
00:39:29,579 --> 00:39:36,359
and they are very convoluted uh and I

974
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:39,000
think inaccurate uh and so it's not just

975
00:39:36,359 --> 00:39:40,500
an eschatology that you have charts and

976
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,480
so we want to be very careful and I

977
00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:44,820
think they are being a little unfair on

978
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:47,160
that criticism

979
00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:49,859
Dr Rinker do you have any additional

980
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:52,980
thoughts in that regard

981
00:39:49,859 --> 00:39:55,560
yes well the apostles themselves were

982
00:39:52,980 --> 00:40:00,060
known to be uneducated by the normal

983
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:01,920
conventions of the day acts 4 13. and uh

984
00:40:00,060 --> 00:40:05,359
Jesus himself was a rather

985
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:08,880
unconventional Rabbi so we

986
00:40:05,359 --> 00:40:11,339
don't worry about the

987
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,200
specific education of a person but

988
00:40:11,339 --> 00:40:15,839
rather does their

989
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,700
understanding of scripture does is it

990
00:40:15,839 --> 00:40:19,440
hermeneutically credible does it have

991
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:21,540
hermeneutical warrant according to the

992
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,480
text and that's really the issue not a

993
00:40:21,540 --> 00:40:26,040
person's pedigree at a deeper level this

994
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,200
is one of the things that one of the

995
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,460
elements of that podcast that really

996
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:34,440
troubled me

997
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:37,140
again if if this were a just a simple

998
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:40,460
attempt I mean a legitimate attempt to

999
00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:44,400
measure the merits of dispensationalism

1000
00:40:40,460 --> 00:40:48,060
as a way of reading the scriptures these

1001
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:49,859
sort of of issues Darby is a lawyer and

1002
00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:51,900
and he was committed to some sort of

1003
00:40:49,859 --> 00:40:54,180
dualistic understanding of reality and

1004
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:57,000
Larkin is an engineer organized things

1005
00:40:54,180 --> 00:40:59,220
and and Lewisberry Schafer was offended

1006
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:01,200
by what happened to early fundamentalism

1007
00:40:59,220 --> 00:41:02,640
and so on there may be some truth to

1008
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,940
these observations

1009
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:08,760
but frankly they have nothing to do with

1010
00:41:05,940 --> 00:41:11,099
the legitimacy of dispensationalism

1011
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,780
and it seems to me again that that the

1012
00:41:11,099 --> 00:41:17,280
issue here is one of polemical in

1013
00:41:12,780 --> 00:41:20,339
Integrity because again this we could

1014
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,140
wish was a debate as how as to how the

1015
00:41:20,339 --> 00:41:25,260
Bible ought to be read

1016
00:41:22,140 --> 00:41:27,780
and political Integrity demands that

1017
00:41:25,260 --> 00:41:30,300
each participate participant in such a

1018
00:41:27,780 --> 00:41:33,599
debate step into his adversary's

1019
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:36,300
worldview assume his position valid

1020
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:39,119
until it falls of its own weight as it's

1021
00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:41,520
measured against the evidences at hand

1022
00:41:39,119 --> 00:41:44,359
but what's Happening Here is they are

1023
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:48,900
assuming I mean they have stipulated

1024
00:41:44,359 --> 00:41:50,240
that dispensationalism is bogus and and

1025
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:54,359
and and and and

1026
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:56,820
the sort of considerations uh about

1027
00:41:54,359 --> 00:41:59,520
about all of these different uh

1028
00:41:56,820 --> 00:42:02,700
personality things and whether or not uh

1029
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,020
the the American culture was ready it

1030
00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:05,820
was looking for this sort of thing

1031
00:42:04,020 --> 00:42:07,920
because of the influence of Mormonism

1032
00:42:05,820 --> 00:42:10,859
and Christian Science none of that

1033
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,079
speaks to the issue of whether or not

1034
00:42:10,859 --> 00:42:15,060
the

1035
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:17,880
dispensationalism is a legitimate way to

1036
00:42:15,060 --> 00:42:20,640
uh to read the scriptures so it seems to

1037
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,880
me that what's at stake here is that

1038
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,839
they have stipulated in their own minds

1039
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,859
and

1040
00:42:24,839 --> 00:42:30,420
in the conversation that dispensational

1041
00:42:27,859 --> 00:42:32,760
dispensationalism is bogus absent any

1042
00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:34,800
attempt at Fair assessment

1043
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,320
and then they spend their time trying to

1044
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,500
discover factors which produce either

1045
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:43,560
characterize or produce such a a bogus

1046
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:47,099
set of ideas and uh and it's very much

1047
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,780
the substance of of Hummel's book uh the

1048
00:42:47,099 --> 00:42:51,180
battle over the end times and how it's

1049
00:42:48,780 --> 00:42:53,160
shaped the nation so many of the factors

1050
00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:55,380
that they bring up and the charges they

1051
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:58,260
make and they're you know rather

1052
00:42:55,380 --> 00:43:00,180
disparaging attitude towards charts what

1053
00:42:58,260 --> 00:43:02,880
has that got to do with the legitimacy

1054
00:43:00,180 --> 00:43:04,920
of dispensationalism as a way of reading

1055
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,680
the scriptures that doesn't seem to be

1056
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:10,440
the real focus of the discussion

1057
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:13,020
that's I think you've got your finger on

1058
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,839
the problem right it really is this the

1059
00:43:13,020 --> 00:43:18,240
whole book is really uh there can be no

1060
00:43:15,839 --> 00:43:20,640
way this is not the right option this is

1061
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:22,500
not the the proper interpretation of

1062
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,420
scripture therefore we have to find a

1063
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:26,819
way to explain this incredible cultural

1064
00:43:24,420 --> 00:43:28,319
phenomenon that's going on all over the

1065
00:43:26,819 --> 00:43:30,180
United States and all around the world

1066
00:43:28,319 --> 00:43:32,700
and all these schools and all these

1067
00:43:30,180 --> 00:43:35,520
Mission agencies that develop and it

1068
00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:38,640
reminds me of like the JDP Theory and

1069
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:41,880
and uh even you know a liberal version

1070
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:44,280
of the synoptic problem is it's you've

1071
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,319
got in your mind this is this can't

1072
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,960
happen Miracles can't happen therefore I

1073
00:43:46,319 --> 00:43:51,780
have to find a a humanistic natural

1074
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,160
explanation for this social cultural

1075
00:43:51,780 --> 00:43:55,560
phenomenon

1076
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:58,440
well Dr Mohler discusses Clarence

1077
00:43:55,560 --> 00:44:00,420
Larkin's charts and seems surprised that

1078
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,640
Larkin's charts would go back to

1079
00:44:00,420 --> 00:44:05,880
Creation as the beginning of the story

1080
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:08,339
uh please watch and listen with me I was

1081
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:11,280
going to mention the Larkin charts

1082
00:44:08,339 --> 00:44:13,680
uh which uh I I at least was exposed to

1083
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,780
as a teenager and it was only far later

1084
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,819
as a historian that I came to understand

1085
00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:19,200
that the British Empire was full of

1086
00:44:17,819 --> 00:44:21,960
similar charts

1087
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:24,119
uh including uh the you know putting

1088
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,339
Britain's imperial history in the flow

1089
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:28,140
of Western Civilization with the Roman

1090
00:44:26,339 --> 00:44:30,480
Empire in the Medieval ages in other

1091
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:31,859
words and so school children uh perhaps

1092
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,300
on both sides of the Atlantic but

1093
00:44:31,859 --> 00:44:35,400
certainly in Great Britain they were

1094
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:37,980
quite accustomed to seeing these uh

1095
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,020
timelines which we're trying to say

1096
00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:41,640
here's the great story and and Larkin

1097
00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:43,920
goes back and of course goes back to

1098
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,619
Creation as the the beginning of the

1099
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:49,380
story well uh Dr Keane you might be like

1100
00:44:46,619 --> 00:44:51,960
amen right you've taught a course called

1101
00:44:49,380 --> 00:44:53,579
the Grand Narrative of scripture you've

1102
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,640
taught this course both at the college

1103
00:44:53,579 --> 00:44:58,079
level at ethnos 360 Bible Institute and

1104
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,060
at The Graduate level at Dallas

1105
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:01,619
Theological Seminary would you please

1106
00:45:00,060 --> 00:45:03,480
share with our listeners a little bit

1107
00:45:01,619 --> 00:45:06,119
about what that grand Narrative of

1108
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,359
scripture is and why Mueller's surprised

1109
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:11,339
that Larkin's charts go back to Creation

1110
00:45:08,359 --> 00:45:13,859
once again puts on display in my

1111
00:45:11,339 --> 00:45:15,300
estimation his lack of understanding of

1112
00:45:13,859 --> 00:45:18,180
dispensationalism

1113
00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:19,980
yeah okay thank you Dr Weaver I just

1114
00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:22,680
want to say first of all that I do

1115
00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:24,300
appreciate Dr Mohler as a person I think

1116
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,940
we all would have things that we would

1117
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:28,920
commend about him I'm a Kentuckian and

1118
00:45:26,940 --> 00:45:31,260
uh just to see how he turned things

1119
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:34,140
around at Southern and their voice for

1120
00:45:31,260 --> 00:45:36,240
conservativism I appreciate that and his

1121
00:45:34,140 --> 00:45:38,400
willingness to take on difficult issues

1122
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:40,020
in the Public Square uh things that

1123
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,020
could get you canceled and he's willing

1124
00:45:40,020 --> 00:45:44,880
to go there so I really appreciate him

1125
00:45:42,020 --> 00:45:47,040
but I do believe that he's wrong about

1126
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,920
his understanding of dispensationalists

1127
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:52,560
and dispensationalism and so yeah as far

1128
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,420
as your question goes uh Grand native of

1129
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,880
scripture this is a course that I teach

1130
00:45:54,420 --> 00:45:59,099
others have taught as well and it

1131
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,859
follows the plot line of scripture from

1132
00:45:59,099 --> 00:46:05,339
Genesis to Revelation and the basic

1133
00:46:01,859 --> 00:46:07,619
premise is that Genesis 1 and 2 serve as

1134
00:46:05,339 --> 00:46:09,660
this setting for the biblical story it

1135
00:46:07,619 --> 00:46:14,099
introduces you to the hero of the story

1136
00:46:09,660 --> 00:46:17,220
God and his plans for his creation and

1137
00:46:14,099 --> 00:46:20,220
those plans include dude mankind ruling

1138
00:46:17,220 --> 00:46:22,920
on the earth as God's delegated rulers

1139
00:46:20,220 --> 00:46:24,660
this is a kingdom God wants them to be

1140
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,359
fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth

1141
00:46:24,660 --> 00:46:30,119
and so what I do in this course is that

1142
00:46:27,359 --> 00:46:32,280
I trace literary features within the

1143
00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:35,220
books of the Bible that I would say

1144
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:37,200
hyperlink them to earlier texts and show

1145
00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:40,619
this developing plot line and this

1146
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:43,040
expectation of this coming Messiah so

1147
00:46:40,619 --> 00:46:46,980
you get the seed promises to Abraham

1148
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:48,900
Isaac Jacob Judah and then to David and

1149
00:46:46,980 --> 00:46:51,060
of course you come into Matthew and

1150
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:54,060
Jesus is the son of Abraham the son of

1151
00:46:51,060 --> 00:46:57,300
David and and so what I see here is that

1152
00:46:54,060 --> 00:46:59,220
we're waiting on a king and that King is

1153
00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:01,920
going to bring God's Kingdom

1154
00:46:59,220 --> 00:47:04,800
and you know as the as the gospel story

1155
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:07,079
unfolds you find that Jesus comes as the

1156
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:10,619
expected Messiah he has the credentials

1157
00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:13,140
his miracles validate him but then when

1158
00:47:10,619 --> 00:47:16,380
the kingdom is proclaimed and rejected

1159
00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:19,440
by the Jews then from that time forward

1160
00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:22,079
Matthew 16 21 he began to tell his

1161
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,000
disciples that he would suffer Etc and

1162
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:26,700
so it looks like we come back to the

1163
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,260
Huddle and now we begin to get

1164
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:29,940
information that things are not going to

1165
00:47:28,260 --> 00:47:32,339
look the way we might have thought they

1166
00:47:29,940 --> 00:47:35,640
would look the fact that there has to be

1167
00:47:32,339 --> 00:47:38,220
instructions inside the Huddle tells me

1168
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,980
that Israel was expecting a literal King

1169
00:47:38,220 --> 00:47:44,040
and Kingdom when the disciples asked

1170
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:46,140
about this in Acts chapter 1 Jesus

1171
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,000
didn't rebuke them saying don't you know

1172
00:47:46,140 --> 00:47:50,460
this is all spiritual he didn't correct

1173
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,440
them because they were accurate

1174
00:47:50,460 --> 00:47:54,839
um but but the timing of that you know

1175
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,240
is pushed down the road so anyway we

1176
00:47:54,839 --> 00:47:59,460
look at the second Advent of Christ and

1177
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:01,619
you get this Millennial Kingdom on the

1178
00:47:59,460 --> 00:48:04,680
earth and then you get the Eternal State

1179
00:48:01,619 --> 00:48:07,440
and and the way Genesis 1 and 2 is

1180
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:11,040
mirrored in Revelation 21 and 22. it

1181
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:13,680
ties the whole story together now uh as

1182
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,980
far as that goes you know this this

1183
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:20,760
issue uh Dr Mohler made it sound like

1184
00:48:16,980 --> 00:48:24,060
Larkin was novel in his concept of

1185
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:26,640
connecting this to Creation I that's not

1186
00:48:24,060 --> 00:48:28,560
new at all a dispensationalists have

1187
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:31,020
always done that I mean this is what we

1188
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:34,859
do we're looking at God's Grand program

1189
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:37,440
for the ages if I can uh you know allude

1190
00:48:34,859 --> 00:48:39,839
to Talbot there so you know this is this

1191
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:42,540
is common among dispensationalists I

1192
00:48:39,839 --> 00:48:44,700
also want to say this is common among

1193
00:48:42,540 --> 00:48:47,339
Covenant theologians that their

1194
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:49,500
articulation goes back to their their

1195
00:48:47,339 --> 00:48:51,780
storyline would be creation fall and

1196
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:53,160
Redemption now I think this is very

1197
00:48:51,780 --> 00:48:55,619
important that we keep it here and

1198
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,060
here's the reason why that for the

1199
00:48:55,619 --> 00:48:59,460
Covenant Theologian they're going to

1200
00:48:57,060 --> 00:49:01,200
argue that God's purpose in history is

1201
00:48:59,460 --> 00:49:03,720
the glory of God through the Redemption

1202
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,940
of the elect and and these Covenant

1203
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:08,940
framework is how this has played out

1204
00:49:05,940 --> 00:49:12,480
but if you think about this it's a focus

1205
00:49:08,940 --> 00:49:15,119
on individual salvation and there's not

1206
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:17,160
a focus on the kingdom I thought it was

1207
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:19,380
ironic that Dr Hummel mentioned

1208
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:21,960
greatness of the Kingdom Alvin J McLean

1209
00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:24,000
uh that book was probably the most

1210
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,440
impactful book that I've ever read but

1211
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,380
you know that that changed me forever

1212
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,780
because what I saw is that the storyline

1213
00:49:28,380 --> 00:49:33,420
doesn't begin in Genesis 3 with the fall

1214
00:49:30,780 --> 00:49:34,980
of Man and it doesn't end with the

1215
00:49:33,420 --> 00:49:36,240
resurrection of Christ and then the

1216
00:49:34,980 --> 00:49:38,819
Redemption of the elect throughout

1217
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:41,280
history but the storyline begins in

1218
00:49:38,819 --> 00:49:44,160
Genesis 1 with the kingdom and it

1219
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:47,280
doesn't end until Revelation 21 and 22

1220
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:49,079
and a new heavens and a new Earth okay

1221
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:52,200
but I want to read a quote on this I

1222
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:54,900
think is powerful this is from J.A size

1223
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:58,440
and his work on the apocalypse he says

1224
00:49:54,900 --> 00:50:01,800
this he says if Redemption does not go

1225
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:04,380
as far as the consequences of sin it is

1226
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,780
a misnomer and fails to be Redemption

1227
00:50:04,380 --> 00:50:09,180
the salvation of any number of

1228
00:50:06,780 --> 00:50:12,180
individuals is not the Redemption of

1229
00:50:09,180 --> 00:50:15,180
what fell but the Gathering up of a few

1230
00:50:12,180 --> 00:50:17,880
splinters and in such a case Satan's

1231
00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:21,060
Mischief would go further than Christ's

1232
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,800
restoration and what he's saying is you

1233
00:50:21,060 --> 00:50:25,319
know regardless of the number of people

1234
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,960
who come to faith in Christ that handful

1235
00:50:25,319 --> 00:50:31,380
of people that's not the Redemption of

1236
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:33,960
what fell and so the storyline isn't

1237
00:50:31,380 --> 00:50:37,619
complete until Christ Reigns but not

1238
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:39,540
just rains rains on the earth and and

1239
00:50:37,619 --> 00:50:41,760
obviously as I said earlier this is not

1240
00:50:39,540 --> 00:50:44,640
uncommon among dispensationalists nor is

1241
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:46,440
it uh exclusive to dispensationalists

1242
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,640
Covenant theologians go back to Creation

1243
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,260
as well

1244
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,460
Dr Bookman you have anything you'd like

1245
00:50:49,260 --> 00:50:52,260
to add to that

1246
00:50:50,460 --> 00:50:54,059
well let me say first of all I

1247
00:50:52,260 --> 00:50:55,980
appreciate all of that and I too stand

1248
00:50:54,059 --> 00:50:58,559
on the shoulders uh very very

1249
00:50:55,980 --> 00:51:01,200
consciously of uh Dr Ella McLean's his

1250
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:04,140
greatness of the kingdom and I I would

1251
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:06,780
just say this as well that that key to

1252
00:51:04,140 --> 00:51:09,180
the whole concept of dispensary or the

1253
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:11,520
dynamic the uh Persona of

1254
00:51:09,180 --> 00:51:15,720
dispensationalism is this idea of the

1255
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:18,480
progress of Revelation and uh I I think

1256
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:20,579
anybody would acknowledge that that

1257
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,440
that's how God has that's how according

1258
00:51:20,579 --> 00:51:25,020
to the Bible God has revealed himself I

1259
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:27,240
like to say that God didn't you know

1260
00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:28,559
back the dump truck of Revelation up to

1261
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,900
the Garden of Eden you know and just

1262
00:51:28,559 --> 00:51:33,420
dump it all there and say okay sort it

1263
00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:35,520
out for yourselves uh God is an

1264
00:51:33,420 --> 00:51:37,559
infinitely wise teacher he knows that

1265
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,500
he's working with almost infinitely slow

1266
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:43,680
students and so kindly and carefully he

1267
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:45,119
has parceled out Revelation and nobody

1268
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,339
would deny that that's why he didn't

1269
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:50,460
take a lamb to church last Sunday but

1270
00:51:47,339 --> 00:51:53,180
but as you read the scriptures simple

1271
00:51:50,460 --> 00:51:56,760
reading the scriptures it's clear

1272
00:51:53,180 --> 00:51:59,940
that there are these stages of

1273
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:01,680
Revelation and they move one is

1274
00:51:59,940 --> 00:52:04,020
absolutely I like the stair step

1275
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,420
approach where where each Revelation

1276
00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:09,300
each stage of Revelation is dependent

1277
00:52:06,420 --> 00:52:12,599
upon that which went before and and and

1278
00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:15,140
the point being that at every stage of

1279
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:20,520
Revelation as recorded in scripture

1280
00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:22,619
mankind is responsible as a steward is a

1281
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:25,380
steward of the Revelation that God has

1282
00:52:22,619 --> 00:52:27,900
given to that point well guess what the

1283
00:52:25,380 --> 00:52:30,119
word dispensation is a dispensation

1284
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:32,640
means it means stewardship that's all

1285
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:35,579
we're saying we're tracing the progress

1286
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:38,400
of Revelation as clearly recorded in

1287
00:52:35,579 --> 00:52:40,319
scripture and and we're assuming I think

1288
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,960
a prop a matter of fact we're insisting

1289
00:52:40,319 --> 00:52:45,119
that the progress of Revelation is

1290
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:48,599
always from truth to Greater truth it's

1291
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:50,160
never from from certainly from error to

1292
00:52:48,599 --> 00:52:52,380
truth or even from deliberate

1293
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,599
misrepresentation to finally telling the

1294
00:52:52,380 --> 00:52:57,119
truth it's from truth to Greater truth

1295
00:52:54,599 --> 00:52:57,839
and that's why wherever you are in the

1296
00:52:57,119 --> 00:52:59,940
Bible

1297
00:52:57,839 --> 00:53:03,420
God expects you to bring with you

1298
00:52:59,940 --> 00:53:06,119
everything he already said so you have

1299
00:53:03,420 --> 00:53:09,300
this progress this careful deliberate

1300
00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:11,280
blessed progress of Revelation and uh

1301
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:13,859
and you simply Trace that in just as Dr

1302
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,380
King pointed out it it produces this

1303
00:53:13,859 --> 00:53:20,880
Grand narrative that is it coherent and

1304
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:23,220
and uh just just blessed Beyond uh uh

1305
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:28,980
our capacity to really appreciate and

1306
00:53:23,220 --> 00:53:32,160
does in fact focus on God's glory the

1307
00:53:28,980 --> 00:53:34,440
way he will put himself on display in

1308
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:38,780
the course of human history by

1309
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:42,180
fulfilling his Covenant promises and by

1310
00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:44,940
accomplishing that which clearly is his

1311
00:53:42,180 --> 00:53:47,099
design and history that uh he would

1312
00:53:44,940 --> 00:53:50,640
Reign through the Messiah for a thousand

1313
00:53:47,099 --> 00:53:52,619
years and then as the the the uh new

1314
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,380
heaven descends and so on I'm sorry as

1315
00:53:52,619 --> 00:53:58,020
the New Jerusalem descends God will once

1316
00:53:55,380 --> 00:54:00,559
again Reign Over the Earth physically on

1317
00:53:58,020 --> 00:54:03,240
this Earth so that grand narrative

1318
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:06,720
unfolds so beautifully as you simply

1319
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:09,200
follow the scriptures uh and and so

1320
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:11,819
would you go back to Genesis to begin

1321
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,940
well that's rather what the word means

1322
00:54:11,819 --> 00:54:16,319
so it seems to me to make good sense to

1323
00:54:14,940 --> 00:54:19,440
start there

1324
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:21,720
very good and you just to reiterate what

1325
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:24,480
you just said we don't knew Revelation

1326
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:28,440
doesn't change or

1327
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:30,300
um forsake or or correct old Revelation

1328
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:33,000
that we do believe as traditional

1329
00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:37,260
dispensationalists or whatever term

1330
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:39,300
you're using Mueller and uh Hummel are

1331
00:54:37,260 --> 00:54:41,220
using the term classical but I think

1332
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:43,920
they don't fully understand how they're

1333
00:54:41,220 --> 00:54:45,540
using it either but nonetheless we

1334
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,700
believe that the progress of Revelation

1335
00:54:45,540 --> 00:54:50,040
is so key to understanding future

1336
00:54:47,700 --> 00:54:51,480
interpretation does future Revelation

1337
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:55,319
doesn't change

1338
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:56,819
uh former Revelation it builds upon it

1339
00:54:55,319 --> 00:54:59,940
well I would like to show another

1340
00:54:56,819 --> 00:55:03,000
interaction between Dr Hummel and Dr

1341
00:54:59,940 --> 00:55:05,099
Muller notice that after Hummel points

1342
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:08,220
out that the charts were intended to

1343
00:55:05,099 --> 00:55:10,140
help simplify things Dr Mueller inserts

1344
00:55:08,220 --> 00:55:12,960
another statement that mocks

1345
00:55:10,140 --> 00:55:15,059
dispensationalists and he does so with a

1346
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,099
unfortunately a big smirk I don't know

1347
00:55:15,059 --> 00:55:20,160
how else to interpret it but he was

1348
00:55:17,099 --> 00:55:22,619
proud of his comment as the British

1349
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,359
would say his cheeky comment so observe

1350
00:55:22,619 --> 00:55:26,280
with me please

1351
00:55:24,359 --> 00:55:28,079
uh by the way just I'll say on on the

1352
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,819
charts those charts which to many

1353
00:55:28,079 --> 00:55:31,559
outsiders look very complicated are

1354
00:55:29,819 --> 00:55:33,119
actually meant to simplify things the

1355
00:55:31,559 --> 00:55:34,800
pictorial representation is meant to

1356
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:36,359
simplify so it's the periodic table of

1357
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,059
elements that's right and I remember

1358
00:55:36,359 --> 00:55:40,680
there's one a Brethren who who uh you

1359
00:55:39,059 --> 00:55:42,359
know was doing these charts and he had a

1360
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,240
very simple chart but it required a 200

1361
00:55:42,359 --> 00:55:47,579
Page uh accompanied annotation you

1362
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:49,500
understand the chart so uh not not so

1363
00:55:47,579 --> 00:55:52,160
simple I guess all right would anybody

1364
00:55:49,500 --> 00:55:56,339
like to comment on the periodical chart

1365
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:59,280
comment or the 200 Page and uh

1366
00:55:56,339 --> 00:56:03,000
accompanied annotations

1367
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:06,839
again I understand that

1368
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:09,200
we should expect a complexity that's

1369
00:56:06,839 --> 00:56:12,180
coherent in the

1370
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:14,160
diversity and richness of all that God

1371
00:56:12,180 --> 00:56:16,380
is doing and all that has revealed over

1372
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:18,720
1400 years of Revelation and in

1373
00:56:16,380 --> 00:56:20,819
scripturation so

1374
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:22,859
um it's not surprising at all that

1375
00:56:20,819 --> 00:56:25,859
perhaps there would be 200 pages of

1376
00:56:22,859 --> 00:56:27,540
annotation for the scriptures are much

1377
00:56:25,859 --> 00:56:29,700
larger than that

1378
00:56:27,540 --> 00:56:31,740
it wasn't in Jesus

1379
00:56:29,700 --> 00:56:35,220
said to the disciples on the road to

1380
00:56:31,740 --> 00:56:39,180
Emmaus oh foolish and slow of heart to

1381
00:56:35,220 --> 00:56:41,520
believe all that the prophets

1382
00:56:39,180 --> 00:56:44,099
said and then you know beginning with

1383
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,839
Moses and all the prophets he shared

1384
00:56:44,099 --> 00:56:48,540
with them those things in scripture

1385
00:56:45,839 --> 00:56:52,619
concerning himself so

1386
00:56:48,540 --> 00:56:54,300
uh these disciples believed some we

1387
00:56:52,619 --> 00:56:57,540
might say they believed or expected

1388
00:56:54,300 --> 00:57:00,059
Isaiah 52 your King has come but they

1389
00:56:57,540 --> 00:57:02,520
struggled with Isaiah 53

1390
00:57:00,059 --> 00:57:05,400
your king is going to be crucified on a

1391
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,740
Roman cross as the Lamb of God so they

1392
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:10,400
believed some Isaiah 52 they didn't

1393
00:57:07,740 --> 00:57:14,460
believe all they didn't read well Isaiah

1394
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:16,260
53 and we today have exactly the

1395
00:57:14,460 --> 00:57:19,140
opposite problem when we hear the word

1396
00:57:16,260 --> 00:57:21,480
gospel we think Jesus died for your sins

1397
00:57:19,140 --> 00:57:23,579
on a Roman cross we're believing that

1398
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,980
but where some at least are not

1399
00:57:23,579 --> 00:57:28,079
believing all they're not believing the

1400
00:57:25,980 --> 00:57:30,720
part of corporate salvation for ethnic

1401
00:57:28,079 --> 00:57:34,200
Israel as promised in Hebrew scriptures

1402
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:36,720
so it's very fascinating that um

1403
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:40,020
Jesus can say that to them rebuking them

1404
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:42,420
for not a complete understanding of the

1405
00:57:40,020 --> 00:57:45,059
Bible storyline I think he'd say the

1406
00:57:42,420 --> 00:57:47,400
same to us to same to many evangelicals

1407
00:57:45,059 --> 00:57:49,260
today you're not believing all

1408
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,540
you understand personal salvation

1409
00:57:49,260 --> 00:57:53,099
through a savior who died for your sins

1410
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:55,380
but you're not expecting corporate

1411
00:57:53,099 --> 00:57:57,059
salvation according to the promises of

1412
00:57:55,380 --> 00:57:59,460
scripture very good that's very helpful

1413
00:57:57,059 --> 00:58:01,520
thank you I you know when we think of

1414
00:57:59,460 --> 00:58:03,720
all of human history really that's what

1415
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,460
dispensationalism is doing and covenant

1416
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,220
theology trying to understand human

1417
00:58:05,460 --> 00:58:11,280
history and how to uh what What's found

1418
00:58:08,220 --> 00:58:13,500
in the Bible so to have 200 footnotes or

1419
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:15,480
annotations isn't that much if you think

1420
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:17,520
about all of human history and the the

1421
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:21,359
storyline in the grand Narrative of

1422
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:23,119
scripture but I digress I also just did

1423
00:58:21,359 --> 00:58:26,760
a quick search

1424
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:29,520
to see okay how are people explaining

1425
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:32,220
their views and how much uh page space

1426
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,680
do they take to do this and I noticed

1427
00:58:32,220 --> 00:58:37,680
Richard belcher's book published in 2020

1428
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:40,440
uh it's a fulfillment of God's promises

1429
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:42,559
or fulfillment of the promises of God an

1430
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:46,760
explanation of covenant theology

1431
00:58:42,559 --> 00:58:50,220
324 pages okay rari's dispensationalism

1432
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:53,059
272 Pages Michael Horton's work on

1433
00:58:50,220 --> 00:58:55,819
introducing covenant theology 208 Pages

1434
00:58:53,059 --> 00:59:00,359
uh renal showers early is a difference

1435
00:58:55,819 --> 00:59:03,119
225 Pages it takes time to explain a

1436
00:59:00,359 --> 00:59:06,720
view in detail so someone who's a novice

1437
00:59:03,119 --> 00:59:09,359
can begin to understand that and so I

1438
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:11,579
think that uh you know they probably

1439
00:59:09,359 --> 00:59:14,819
didn't think about this I don't think

1440
00:59:11,579 --> 00:59:16,500
you know that Dr Mohler or Dr Hummel

1441
00:59:14,819 --> 00:59:18,599
considered this but really this is the

1442
00:59:16,500 --> 00:59:21,420
case of special pleading it's a logical

1443
00:59:18,599 --> 00:59:23,160
fallacy where you want to be treated one

1444
00:59:21,420 --> 00:59:25,319
way but your opponent's view is treated

1445
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,960
a different way it takes time to explain

1446
00:59:25,319 --> 00:59:30,540
both use uh and I think it could be

1447
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:33,420
argued that the dispensational view is

1448
00:59:30,540 --> 00:59:36,240
actually the easiest one to explain

1449
00:59:33,420 --> 00:59:38,160
well listen uh I just got to say and Dr

1450
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:41,760
King made the point is there is a

1451
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:43,380
logical fallacy we have a veritable uh

1452
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,839
you know just explosion illogical

1453
00:59:43,380 --> 00:59:47,460
fallacies going on here but I have to go

1454
00:59:45,839 --> 00:59:49,799
back and say look if you were going to

1455
00:59:47,460 --> 00:59:52,200
ask somebody if somebody asked you is

1456
00:59:49,799 --> 00:59:53,700
dispensationalism a legitimate way to

1457
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,680
read the scriptures and you're replied

1458
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:58,559
by saying well they have charts that

1459
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:02,339
take a lot of pages to explain

1460
00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:04,020
how does that even speak to the issue on

1461
01:00:02,339 --> 01:00:06,359
the other hand if you if you want to say

1462
01:00:04,020 --> 01:00:09,299
well we know this is bogus and what

1463
01:00:06,359 --> 01:00:12,059
pretended criticisms can we come up with

1464
01:00:09,299 --> 01:00:13,380
special pleading Galore that's that's

1465
01:00:12,059 --> 01:00:14,760
what's going on here that's that's

1466
01:00:13,380 --> 01:00:17,880
what's so troubling about this

1467
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:20,720
interchange is that there is there is it

1468
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:24,240
there is so little polemical Integrity

1469
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:26,040
in it it seems to me well gentlemen I

1470
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:28,920
want to play this next video clip

1471
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:31,380
without any introduction and then see if

1472
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:33,780
you have any issues that you take with

1473
01:00:31,380 --> 01:00:36,960
it watch with me

1474
01:00:33,780 --> 01:00:38,880
you know I I'm I'm a a great uh

1475
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,859
appreciator or the first Great Awakening

1476
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,680
great concerns about the Second Great

1477
01:00:40,859 --> 01:00:46,680
Awakening one thing it's effects it's

1478
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:48,960
set loose all these sex and Cults uh you

1479
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,579
know uh you know so many of them from

1480
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,680
the American Northeast

1481
01:00:50,579 --> 01:00:55,140
and everybody had a system whether it

1482
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:57,559
was Mary Baker Eddie uh you know or

1483
01:00:55,140 --> 01:01:00,180
Joseph Smith and everybody had a system

1484
01:00:57,559 --> 01:01:02,040
and it seems to me that sociologically

1485
01:01:00,180 --> 01:01:05,880
the United States at that moment was

1486
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:07,680
kind of ready for an argument that was

1487
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:09,780
pretty classically Christian and

1488
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:12,299
biblicist to say okay you know those

1489
01:01:09,780 --> 01:01:14,359
guys are nuts here's the system

1490
01:01:12,299 --> 01:01:18,540
yeah that makes a lot of sense to me

1491
01:01:14,359 --> 01:01:21,000
does that make sense to you Dr Stalin I

1492
01:01:18,540 --> 01:01:23,099
think it's something that's not new it's

1493
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:25,319
uh if you remember Timothy Weber's book

1494
01:01:23,099 --> 01:01:26,640
on the road to Armageddon that came out

1495
01:01:25,319 --> 01:01:28,920
years ago

1496
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,020
says does the same kind of guilt by

1497
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,780
association argument

1498
01:01:31,020 --> 01:01:36,359
uh and but he'll say he has a chapter

1499
01:01:33,780 --> 01:01:37,920
and he puts uh Darby in the middle of

1500
01:01:36,359 --> 01:01:39,720
Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and

1501
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,299
everybody else and then and then he had

1502
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,680
later on he'll say but Darby isn't like

1503
01:01:42,299 --> 01:01:45,900
the rest of them

1504
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:47,640
but he's already done the damage by

1505
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:49,980
putting it out there together and so I

1506
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:52,140
think there's a little bit of that in

1507
01:01:49,980 --> 01:01:55,160
this and that made me a little concerned

1508
01:01:52,140 --> 01:01:57,299
about this part of the of the podcast

1509
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:59,579
you know there are things that are

1510
01:01:57,299 --> 01:02:02,660
driving people back to the Bible

1511
01:01:59,579 --> 01:02:02,660
and in the in the

1512
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:07,260
you know after the Napoleonic Wars are

1513
01:02:04,859 --> 01:02:10,140
over I mean Europe is decimated I don't

1514
01:02:07,260 --> 01:02:12,359
think we understand how bad that was

1515
01:02:10,140 --> 01:02:14,460
and but one good thing that's now

1516
01:02:12,359 --> 01:02:16,440
happening that the wars are over is that

1517
01:02:14,460 --> 01:02:18,599
evangelicals in England and evangelicals

1518
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:21,119
on the continent in Europe are beginning

1519
01:02:18,599 --> 01:02:23,640
to be able to talk again

1520
01:02:21,119 --> 01:02:25,020
and uh they began and there's a

1521
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,540
different groups doing different things

1522
01:02:25,020 --> 01:02:29,700
it's all over the map in the culture but

1523
01:02:27,540 --> 01:02:31,700
they're you know you there are writings

1524
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:34,740
one by a man named the de gaults

1525
01:02:31,700 --> 01:02:37,140
g-o-l-t-z that I ran across middle 1800s

1526
01:02:34,740 --> 01:02:38,339
he does kind of a survey of different

1527
01:02:37,140 --> 01:02:40,680
groups

1528
01:02:38,339 --> 01:02:41,339
and what they're about and when he gets

1529
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,339
to

1530
01:02:41,339 --> 01:02:46,200
Darby and the darbyites

1531
01:02:44,339 --> 01:02:49,380
he says they aren't the people who are

1532
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:52,380
into simple Bible readings

1533
01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:54,059
they go verse by verse Through the Bible

1534
01:02:52,380 --> 01:02:55,680
trying to figure out what it said and

1535
01:02:54,059 --> 01:02:58,619
where it's going and they go they're

1536
01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:01,020
just simple Bible readers

1537
01:02:58,619 --> 01:03:02,760
and I found it interesting this is a man

1538
01:03:01,020 --> 01:03:04,140
outside the camp

1539
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,000
in Europe

1540
01:03:04,140 --> 01:03:09,720
talking about them in the middle of the

1541
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,980
1800s and uh what drove them back well

1542
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,960
the world's falling apart has fallen

1543
01:03:10,980 --> 01:03:15,540
apart so people are looking for things

1544
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:18,359
and the darbyites were looking for it in

1545
01:03:15,540 --> 01:03:21,180
scripture and they were taking it line

1546
01:03:18,359 --> 01:03:22,980
by line precept by precept they were

1547
01:03:21,180 --> 01:03:24,720
basically following what we want my call

1548
01:03:22,980 --> 01:03:27,119
today grammatical historical

1549
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:29,940
interpretation now they had other crusty

1550
01:03:27,119 --> 01:03:32,640
things around as everyone is prone to do

1551
01:03:29,940 --> 01:03:35,819
but I think that's important so I see

1552
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:37,859
what Darby is in his movement is done

1553
01:03:35,819 --> 01:03:40,020
was a rediscovery

1554
01:03:37,859 --> 01:03:42,359
of the Jewish perspective of the Bible

1555
01:03:40,020 --> 01:03:46,140
and by that I don't mean denial of the

1556
01:03:42,359 --> 01:03:48,780
Messiah Jesus I mean a recapture of

1557
01:03:46,140 --> 01:03:50,819
primarily the literalness of how they

1558
01:03:48,780 --> 01:03:53,640
viewed things like their Kingdom and

1559
01:03:50,819 --> 01:03:55,200
kiliasm and all those kind of things so

1560
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:57,720
that you know when we come to Oswald T

1561
01:03:55,200 --> 01:04:00,119
Alice in 1945 he complained about

1562
01:03:57,720 --> 01:04:01,980
dispensation she says we're the people

1563
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:06,660
that we're extremists because we take

1564
01:04:01,980 --> 01:04:06,660
the word Israel to mean Israel

1565
01:04:07,859 --> 01:04:13,619
and you know that Darby and his group

1566
01:04:10,559 --> 01:04:15,780
they were taking the words at face value

1567
01:04:13,619 --> 01:04:17,880
and what drove them to that was the

1568
01:04:15,780 --> 01:04:21,780
falling apart of the world and the

1569
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:24,540
Napoleonic Wars and so I I think uh they

1570
01:04:21,780 --> 01:04:27,299
were people back to the Bible movement

1571
01:04:24,540 --> 01:04:29,099
it wasn't super clear to me and in both

1572
01:04:27,299 --> 01:04:30,660
of these previous clips that that we

1573
01:04:29,099 --> 01:04:33,599
looked at

1574
01:04:30,660 --> 01:04:36,420
um what exactly Dr Muller and Dr Hummel

1575
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:39,020
were doing with these observations

1576
01:04:36,420 --> 01:04:42,839
uh they're talking about the

1577
01:04:39,020 --> 01:04:45,780
socio-political economic situations that

1578
01:04:42,839 --> 01:04:49,200
obtain wind dispensationalism begins to

1579
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:50,160
take form as a theology as a theological

1580
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,020
system

1581
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:55,440
and if all they're doing is being

1582
01:04:52,020 --> 01:04:57,839
descriptive and saying these were the

1583
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,700
socio-political factors at the time that

1584
01:04:57,839 --> 01:05:02,400
perhaps gave shape to how

1585
01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:05,040
dispensationalism developed or

1586
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:06,960
influenced how dispensationalism was

1587
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,359
formulated then I would have no problem

1588
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,980
with that because that's true of every

1589
01:05:09,359 --> 01:05:13,099
theological development that has ever

1590
01:05:10,980 --> 01:05:16,020
occurred throughout the last 2000 years

1591
01:05:13,099 --> 01:05:17,180
we all develop our theology in

1592
01:05:16,020 --> 01:05:19,799
particular

1593
01:05:17,180 --> 01:05:22,319
socio-cultural milus and that's going to

1594
01:05:19,799 --> 01:05:24,059
affect how we shape and how we formulate

1595
01:05:22,319 --> 01:05:26,160
our theology

1596
01:05:24,059 --> 01:05:28,319
but it almost seems to me at times like

1597
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:30,660
what they're trying to do is point to

1598
01:05:28,319 --> 01:05:32,819
these socio-political economic factors

1599
01:05:30,660 --> 01:05:36,299
and then use that to explain away the

1600
01:05:32,819 --> 01:05:37,619
legitimacy of dispensationalism and if

1601
01:05:36,299 --> 01:05:41,339
that's what they're doing then that is

1602
01:05:37,619 --> 01:05:44,400
remarkably reductionistic uh oh well you

1603
01:05:41,339 --> 01:05:46,500
only have this system because of X Y and

1604
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,940
Z external factors and I would just

1605
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:50,220
point out that you could play that game

1606
01:05:47,940 --> 01:05:52,859
with any theological system

1607
01:05:50,220 --> 01:05:55,440
we could look at Protestant Reformation

1608
01:05:52,859 --> 01:05:57,299
theology which I know Dr Muller holds

1609
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,220
too it sounds like Dr humble does as

1610
01:05:57,299 --> 01:06:00,960
well and you could say okay yeah

1611
01:05:59,220 --> 01:06:03,660
Protestant Reformation that's really

1612
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:06,480
just the result of the full flowering of

1613
01:06:03,660 --> 01:06:08,700
Renaissance humanism uh applied to

1614
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,760
Christian theology at the same time

1615
01:06:08,700 --> 01:06:14,760
you've got Roman Catholic uh political

1616
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,920
corruption run amok and then put in the

1617
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,839
invention of the printing press and you

1618
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:21,240
sort of supercharge this movement and

1619
01:06:18,839 --> 01:06:22,980
that's all there is to it

1620
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,839
I don't think that would be a fair way

1621
01:06:22,980 --> 01:06:26,460
of characterizing the emergence of the

1622
01:06:24,839 --> 01:06:28,619
Protestant Reformation and I think those

1623
01:06:26,460 --> 01:06:31,500
who are sympathetic to Protestant

1624
01:06:28,619 --> 01:06:34,079
reformed theology would say yes those

1625
01:06:31,500 --> 01:06:36,299
factors may have contributed to the way

1626
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:38,460
that this theology emerged

1627
01:06:36,299 --> 01:06:40,920
but they would likely say that God and

1628
01:06:38,460 --> 01:06:44,160
His Providence used those factors to

1629
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:46,380
drive the reformers to X Y and Z correct

1630
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:48,480
theological conclusions that they're

1631
01:06:46,380 --> 01:06:49,799
deriving from scripture and I think

1632
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:52,079
that's exactly what the rest of us would

1633
01:06:49,799 --> 01:06:54,780
say about dispensationalism it's not

1634
01:06:52,079 --> 01:06:56,520
that the Contemporary situation on the

1635
01:06:54,780 --> 01:06:58,920
ground and the political situation in

1636
01:06:56,520 --> 01:07:01,380
England and America did not contribute

1637
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:03,299
to how this took form it's just that you

1638
01:07:01,380 --> 01:07:05,220
can't reduce the emergence of a

1639
01:07:03,299 --> 01:07:07,740
theological system to those external

1640
01:07:05,220 --> 01:07:10,020
factors well said thank you for that

1641
01:07:07,740 --> 01:07:12,059
well let's move on to another actually

1642
01:07:10,020 --> 01:07:14,880
I'm not going to show the next clip but

1643
01:07:12,059 --> 01:07:16,940
for the sake of time I I want to tell

1644
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:20,700
you about it and have you comment on it

1645
01:07:16,940 --> 01:07:25,260
but I will quote Dr Mohler he States

1646
01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:27,299
classical dispensationalism and we don't

1647
01:07:25,260 --> 01:07:28,339
fully understand he never really defines

1648
01:07:27,299 --> 01:07:30,440
what he means by classical

1649
01:07:28,339 --> 01:07:32,819
dispensationalism but classical

1650
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:35,700
dispensationalism is today rarely

1651
01:07:32,819 --> 01:07:36,720
encountered it's only in a few isolated

1652
01:07:35,700 --> 01:07:38,760
pockets

1653
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:41,400
I'm assuming he's talking about

1654
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:44,160
traditional dispensationalism

1655
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:46,020
um using that term or I don't like the

1656
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:48,059
term revised dispensationalism because

1657
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:50,579
that's really what the progressives have

1658
01:07:48,059 --> 01:07:52,559
given to us because they're setting us

1659
01:07:50,579 --> 01:07:55,619
on a spectrum right they've got the

1660
01:07:52,559 --> 01:07:58,859
classical revised so kind of setting the

1661
01:07:55,619 --> 01:08:00,079
stage to win the debate but so assuming

1662
01:07:58,859 --> 01:08:02,400
that he's speaking of classical

1663
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:05,960
dispensationalism speaking of you all

1664
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:09,599
speaking of me how would you respond to

1665
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:12,720
this statement Dr Keane would you like

1666
01:08:09,599 --> 01:08:15,000
to start yeah I'll do that so you know

1667
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:18,060
April and I my wife we've been with uh

1668
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:20,460
ethnos 360 for 20 years now most of you

1669
01:08:18,060 --> 01:08:23,520
know ethnos 360 is new tribe's Mission

1670
01:08:20,460 --> 01:08:26,460
we recently changed our name uh but new

1671
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:29,819
tribe's Mission ethnos360 uh we are

1672
01:08:26,460 --> 01:08:32,040
unashamedly dispensational and uh just

1673
01:08:29,819 --> 01:08:34,080
to share some statistics about our

1674
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:36,000
organization because we I feel like

1675
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,620
we're very strong we're planting

1676
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,960
churches around the world and these

1677
01:08:37,620 --> 01:08:42,660
churches are dispensational they may not

1678
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:44,940
know that uh some of them but that's

1679
01:08:42,660 --> 01:08:47,540
that's what they are so you know we have

1680
01:08:44,940 --> 01:08:50,400
what we call ethnos 360 Global Partners

1681
01:08:47,540 --> 01:08:52,380
and this goes back several years ago

1682
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:54,960
when you know new tribes mission was

1683
01:08:52,380 --> 01:08:57,480
based out of the United States and then

1684
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:59,880
we had several sending countries that

1685
01:08:57,480 --> 01:09:01,560
were also sending missionaries and we

1686
01:08:59,880 --> 01:09:04,080
realized you know we need to we need to

1687
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:06,359
globalize here and so we have this

1688
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:08,759
Global Ministry agreement that holds

1689
01:09:06,359 --> 01:09:10,380
together our Global Partners so might be

1690
01:09:08,759 --> 01:09:11,699
a different name of the mission in

1691
01:09:10,380 --> 01:09:14,880
different countries but we're the same

1692
01:09:11,699 --> 01:09:17,400
organization we have 22 different

1693
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:19,799
sending entities countries that send out

1694
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:23,100
missionaries I'll name a few but just a

1695
01:09:19,799 --> 01:09:26,880
few USA Germany United Kingdom

1696
01:09:23,100 --> 01:09:29,759
Philippines Mexico Brazil Bolivia Faroe

1697
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,859
Islands Italy and of course the European

1698
01:09:29,759 --> 01:09:34,560
countries many would expect that they

1699
01:09:31,859 --> 01:09:36,359
would be Covenant theologians but in

1700
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:38,040
fact we've had you know we have some

1701
01:09:36,359 --> 01:09:39,480
strong pockets of dispensationalists

1702
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:43,020
from those countries

1703
01:09:39,480 --> 01:09:45,239
and uh we're working in a total of 348

1704
01:09:43,020 --> 01:09:47,279
people groups right now so those are

1705
01:09:45,239 --> 01:09:49,440
just let me interrupt those are sending

1706
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,880
countries right absolutely receiving

1707
01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:53,759
countries but they're sending out

1708
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:56,160
dispensational missionaries yes and and

1709
01:09:53,759 --> 01:09:59,580
out of those countries we have training

1710
01:09:56,160 --> 01:10:01,260
centers in 12 countries with about 700

1711
01:09:59,580 --> 01:10:03,719
students right now in our training

1712
01:10:01,260 --> 01:10:05,940
programs worldwide these people are

1713
01:10:03,719 --> 01:10:08,400
being trained to plant churches with

1714
01:10:05,940 --> 01:10:09,840
ethnosis 360. and let me just read this

1715
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:13,020
to you this is one of our doctrinal

1716
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:15,320
points quote the church beginning at

1717
01:10:13,020 --> 01:10:17,580
Pentecost is the body of Christ

1718
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,920
comprised of those who have trusted

1719
01:10:17,580 --> 01:10:22,620
Jesus Christ as Savior and then there's

1720
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:25,140
an explanation below that that says for

1721
01:10:22,620 --> 01:10:28,080
example that the church is the body of

1722
01:10:25,140 --> 01:10:29,159
Christ not a reprie not a replacement of

1723
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:32,040
Israel

1724
01:10:29,159 --> 01:10:34,560
Etc so you know for someone to be a

1725
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:36,360
member with ethnos360 these people that

1726
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:38,040
were training and sending out they are

1727
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,480
agreeing to this and they're agreeing to

1728
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,480
it willingly because this is the

1729
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:45,840
position that they hold so at least

1730
01:10:42,480 --> 01:10:47,340
among ethno's 360 dispensationalism is

1731
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:50,000
alive and well

1732
01:10:47,340 --> 01:10:52,380
Dr altizer you're also involved with

1733
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,880
ntcgs the national theological college

1734
01:10:52,380 --> 01:10:55,980
and graduate school tell us a little bit

1735
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,840
about its impact

1736
01:10:55,980 --> 01:11:01,199
sure Paul wig train in the Middle East

1737
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:04,080
and we have over 600 graduates actually

1738
01:11:01,199 --> 01:11:06,600
400 graduates 200 enrolled now in the

1739
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:08,400
current program in closed countries in

1740
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:10,980
the Middle East and many times they tell

1741
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:14,640
us you know that's the home of allegory

1742
01:11:10,980 --> 01:11:17,159
and covenant theology and they tell us

1743
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:19,260
we are the trash can for the whole world

1744
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:21,480
everybody brings their bad theology here

1745
01:11:19,260 --> 01:11:23,699
so when we first went in the country

1746
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:25,679
with I'm not going to say a

1747
01:11:23,699 --> 01:11:27,179
dispensational hermeneutic but teaching

1748
01:11:25,679 --> 01:11:29,580
the students literal interpretation

1749
01:11:27,179 --> 01:11:33,300
which resulted in a dispensational

1750
01:11:29,580 --> 01:11:35,460
approach they said we want this and

1751
01:11:33,300 --> 01:11:37,380
instead of fighting us and rejecting us

1752
01:11:35,460 --> 01:11:39,800
they ended up having to Grapple with

1753
01:11:37,380 --> 01:11:43,560
God's word as it's written what it means

1754
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:45,360
how they put that together and as a

1755
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:47,219
result they have planted churches

1756
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:50,280
throughout the Middle East in closed

1757
01:11:47,219 --> 01:11:52,140
countries where we can't get to and most

1758
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:54,900
I'm not going to say all but most are

1759
01:11:52,140 --> 01:11:57,120
unashamedly dispensational some have

1760
01:11:54,900 --> 01:11:58,800
planted count countless charges we

1761
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:01,679
stopped trying to count them

1762
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:04,860
but to say that it's you know sparse or

1763
01:12:01,679 --> 01:12:07,140
not prevalent it's not growing I think

1764
01:12:04,860 --> 01:12:10,380
that's a very limited view on actually

1765
01:12:07,140 --> 01:12:12,420
what's going on if you compare to maybe

1766
01:12:10,380 --> 01:12:14,400
Seminary size in America perhaps

1767
01:12:12,420 --> 01:12:17,400
dispensationalism is not as large as

1768
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:19,140
reformed or covenant theology but it's

1769
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,780
still at work and it's still

1770
01:12:19,140 --> 01:12:23,699
communicating to people and they still

1771
01:12:21,780 --> 01:12:25,739
believe it because God's word is

1772
01:12:23,699 --> 01:12:28,440
understandable and it means what it says

1773
01:12:25,739 --> 01:12:30,120
so we're we're thankful for that

1774
01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:33,960
it's very good and I have the privilege

1775
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:36,420
of being a faculty member with ntcgs and

1776
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:39,320
so thankful to have that privilege to be

1777
01:12:36,420 --> 01:12:42,000
training people that would be the most

1778
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:45,540
predisposed not to be dispensationalists

1779
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:47,940
right those who politically don't like

1780
01:12:45,540 --> 01:12:49,860
Israel as a nation as their people group

1781
01:12:47,940 --> 01:12:52,800
not them as individuals but their people

1782
01:12:49,860 --> 01:12:55,739
group and so it's very interesting that

1783
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:59,880
they have to get Beyond those very

1784
01:12:55,739 --> 01:13:01,620
strong political uh pressures and as

1785
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:03,300
they read the text they've come to these

1786
01:13:01,620 --> 01:13:05,640
conclusions this book is a little bit

1787
01:13:03,300 --> 01:13:07,440
North America focused right

1788
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:09,540
um we could talk about the impact around

1789
01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:11,400
the world you know as you know I was the

1790
01:13:09,540 --> 01:13:14,280
academic dean of the word of Life Global

1791
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:18,780
Bible Institute and Word of Life is in

1792
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:21,719
80 plus countries and has 16 Bible

1793
01:13:18,780 --> 01:13:24,960
institutes 10 of them are accredited and

1794
01:13:21,719 --> 01:13:26,659
so they're producing a lot of alumni

1795
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:29,520
that know the and are studying the Bible

1796
01:13:26,659 --> 01:13:31,980
and using the historical grammatical

1797
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:36,420
literal method in coming to these same

1798
01:13:31,980 --> 01:13:39,360
conclusions so it is well beyond just a

1799
01:13:36,420 --> 01:13:41,400
few isolated people in the United by the

1800
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:43,560
way I'd also add wherever I go and teach

1801
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,540
I just got back from Argentina the

1802
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:47,940
Brethren churches are almost always the

1803
01:13:45,540 --> 01:13:50,280
strongest churches too because they're

1804
01:13:47,940 --> 01:13:53,100
so committed to every one of them

1805
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:54,840
studying the Bible and and the men being

1806
01:13:53,100 --> 01:13:57,659
able to stand up and teach the Bible so

1807
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:59,040
uh in in Hungary is the Brethren

1808
01:13:57,659 --> 01:14:02,120
churches that helped us start the Bible

1809
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:05,060
there because they had a real strong

1810
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:07,080
commitment commitment to

1811
01:14:05,060 --> 01:14:09,960
understanding historical grammatical

1812
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:13,739
literal and preparing individually to

1813
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:16,679
teach Dr cevallu Southern Baptist Church

1814
01:14:13,739 --> 01:14:18,659
member you were at Southwestern Baptist

1815
01:14:16,679 --> 01:14:20,520
Theological Seminary how was your

1816
01:14:18,659 --> 01:14:22,920
reception there as a traditional

1817
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:24,480
dispensationalist yes although I

1818
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:26,640
currently teach at Dallas Theological

1819
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:28,920
Seminary my first full-time teaching

1820
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:32,340
position with was with Southwestern

1821
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:33,540
Baptist Theological Seminary

1822
01:14:32,340 --> 01:14:36,719
um

1823
01:14:33,540 --> 01:14:38,520
when I uh and and people have called

1824
01:14:36,719 --> 01:14:40,199
Southwestern a former president called

1825
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,760
it the Crown Jewel of the Southern

1826
01:14:40,199 --> 01:14:44,400
Baptist seminaries

1827
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:46,080
I won't be the one to determine whether

1828
01:14:44,400 --> 01:14:48,239
that's accurate or not but what you

1829
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:51,120
can't say is that Southwestern is

1830
01:14:48,239 --> 01:14:54,120
marginal right it is it is one of the

1831
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:56,580
six major Southern Baptist seminaries

1832
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:59,159
and when I joined the faculty there the

1833
01:14:56,580 --> 01:15:00,679
president I think would probably be

1834
01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:04,199
identified as a classic

1835
01:15:00,679 --> 01:15:06,800
dispensationalist because the Provost uh

1836
01:15:04,199 --> 01:15:09,239
Craig blazing he disagreed with him

1837
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:10,739
and so I I don't know where else he's

1838
01:15:09,239 --> 01:15:12,420
going to go other than maybe classical

1839
01:15:10,739 --> 01:15:16,020
or traditional

1840
01:15:12,420 --> 01:15:18,120
uh now when I was at Southwestern I

1841
01:15:16,020 --> 01:15:19,380
primarily served down at the Houston

1842
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:21,840
campus

1843
01:15:19,380 --> 01:15:26,159
at the Houston campus

1844
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:29,460
my Dean would probably be fall into the

1845
01:15:26,159 --> 01:15:30,900
classical or traditional or well blazing

1846
01:15:29,460 --> 01:15:32,880
a buck we'll call revised

1847
01:15:30,900 --> 01:15:33,620
dispensationalists

1848
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:37,080
um

1849
01:15:33,620 --> 01:15:39,659
and uh probably

1850
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:41,880
you know a third the half of the faculty

1851
01:15:39,659 --> 01:15:44,640
in Houston would be considered

1852
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:46,620
dispensational

1853
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:48,480
um you know one of the things that I

1854
01:15:46,620 --> 01:15:51,900
really as I was thinking about this

1855
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:54,780
question is that

1856
01:15:51,900 --> 01:15:56,820
when I served it was never a shiblet or

1857
01:15:54,780 --> 01:15:58,620
a litmus test and I'm classical or

1858
01:15:56,820 --> 01:16:01,460
Progressive or even I was if I was a

1859
01:15:58,620 --> 01:16:01,460
dispensationalist

1860
01:16:01,620 --> 01:16:07,440
um I was able to sign with Integrity the

1861
01:16:04,140 --> 01:16:09,000
Baptist faith and message 2000 as a

1862
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:12,300
dispensationalist

1863
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:14,520
and you know my scholarship as far as I

1864
01:16:12,300 --> 01:16:16,199
know uh was never really called into

1865
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,179
question because of my dispensationalism

1866
01:16:16,199 --> 01:16:21,120
I just did the work

1867
01:16:18,179 --> 01:16:24,179
uh of what it meant to uh you know teach

1868
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,980
it to teach at the school and so

1869
01:16:24,179 --> 01:16:29,100
um I didn't sense any kind of hostility

1870
01:16:25,980 --> 01:16:31,080
I didn't I didn't feel that I was uh

1871
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:31,920
viewed as a unicorn or something like

1872
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:35,400
that

1873
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:37,800
you know uh it was just um I was uh

1874
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:40,020
serving with these other uh men and

1875
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,880
women at the institution and so I I

1876
01:16:40,020 --> 01:16:44,460
can't say I had a negative thing and I

1877
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:47,760
just certainly didn't feel like I was a

1878
01:16:44,460 --> 01:16:51,480
rare or a rarity or an isolated pocket

1879
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:53,820
but uh that's simply my experience

1880
01:16:51,480 --> 01:16:55,980
that's very interesting I uh this is the

1881
01:16:53,820 --> 01:16:58,320
anecdotal story but I did talk you know

1882
01:16:55,980 --> 01:17:01,199
it's from the mouth of ryrie himself so

1883
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:03,420
I was interviewing Dr ryrie for uh

1884
01:17:01,199 --> 01:17:05,400
research paper that I was involved in Dr

1885
01:17:03,420 --> 01:17:07,320
stallard's class for and he was kind

1886
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:10,020
enough to take a couple interviews with

1887
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:12,179
me and and he was sharing about how Dr

1888
01:17:10,020 --> 01:17:15,960
Paige Patterson was uh introducing him

1889
01:17:12,179 --> 01:17:18,179
at the Seminary and uh and he introduced

1890
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:19,920
Dr ryrie and he said this book held up

1891
01:17:18,179 --> 01:17:22,080
dispensationalism the book and this is

1892
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,239
Charles Riley telling me this and he

1893
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:26,640
held up the book and said uh this he's

1894
01:17:24,239 --> 01:17:29,640
the author of dispensationalism and he

1895
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:31,500
looked over at uh blazing and said you

1896
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:33,239
should probably read this one

1897
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:35,880
and so

1898
01:17:33,239 --> 01:17:37,860
um I think that would affirm what you're

1899
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:40,800
saying that he probably was a

1900
01:17:37,860 --> 01:17:43,500
traditional dispensationalist

1901
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:46,440
in this next video clip that I want to

1902
01:17:43,500 --> 01:17:49,260
show and then have you discuss Dr Hummel

1903
01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:52,199
indicates that those who are what he

1904
01:17:49,260 --> 01:17:54,840
calls classical dispensationalists which

1905
01:17:52,199 --> 01:17:56,760
Dr Mohler and Dr Hummel seem to be

1906
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:59,159
referring to everyone who is not what we

1907
01:17:56,760 --> 01:18:01,920
call Progressive dispensationalists that

1908
01:17:59,159 --> 01:18:05,880
these individuals are few and far

1909
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:08,179
between and in their 60s and 70s other

1910
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:11,340
interviews Dr Hummel says they are above

1911
01:18:08,179 --> 01:18:13,080
65. would you listen with me and comment

1912
01:18:11,340 --> 01:18:15,179
afterwards

1913
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:17,159
um the the in terms of the classical

1914
01:18:15,179 --> 01:18:18,780
um no there aren't many uh left there is

1915
01:18:17,159 --> 01:18:21,179
a book that just came out

1916
01:18:18,780 --> 01:18:22,920
um this uh last week called discovering

1917
01:18:21,179 --> 01:18:25,920
dispensationalism which cobbles together

1918
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:27,480
about a dozen Scholars who hold to uh

1919
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:29,760
largely a classical that there are some

1920
01:18:27,480 --> 01:18:31,679
progressives in that mix

1921
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,179
um and and you know the places that

1922
01:18:31,679 --> 01:18:36,060
really teach us are places like Southern

1923
01:18:33,179 --> 01:18:38,640
California Seminary very small Seminary

1924
01:18:36,060 --> 01:18:40,199
um uh Shepherds College very small uh

1925
01:18:38,640 --> 01:18:42,060
very small College they're pretty

1926
01:18:40,199 --> 01:18:43,440
vibrant in their own way but they're

1927
01:18:42,060 --> 01:18:44,760
very small and you could probably put

1928
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:48,060
all of them in a room and it wouldn't

1929
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:50,280
equal you know a one large Seminary

1930
01:18:48,060 --> 01:18:52,560
um but uh but otherwise the the

1931
01:18:50,280 --> 01:18:55,739
classical tradition of dispensationalism

1932
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:58,739
is is on really tough ground

1933
01:18:55,739 --> 01:19:00,540
um I would guess uh that that if you

1934
01:18:58,739 --> 01:19:02,880
went to some seminaries and you found

1935
01:19:00,540 --> 01:19:04,320
them uh they would be in their 60s or

1936
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:06,120
70s at this point there's not there's

1937
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:08,040
not people in their 30s and 40s who are

1938
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:10,440
sort of being trained in this system the

1939
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:13,620
video clip that I just showed you Dr

1940
01:19:10,440 --> 01:19:16,260
homos just manifestly wrong this very

1941
01:19:13,620 --> 01:19:19,199
panel shows all but two of us are under

1942
01:19:16,260 --> 01:19:21,060
the age of 65 and on this panel we have

1943
01:19:19,199 --> 01:19:23,219
professors from more than 12 different

1944
01:19:21,060 --> 01:19:25,500
theological colleges universities and

1945
01:19:23,219 --> 01:19:27,900
seminaries at Dallas Theological

1946
01:19:25,500 --> 01:19:30,300
Seminary alone I know of at least seven

1947
01:19:27,900 --> 01:19:32,300
other colleagues well under the age of

1948
01:19:30,300 --> 01:19:34,440
65 who are traditional

1949
01:19:32,300 --> 01:19:37,020
dispensationalists of the ryrie wolvard

1950
01:19:34,440 --> 01:19:39,179
Pentecost and McLean variety

1951
01:19:37,020 --> 01:19:42,060
so to make such a statement on multiple

1952
01:19:39,179 --> 01:19:44,880
interviews is in my opinion just sloppy

1953
01:19:42,060 --> 01:19:46,500
guesswork and not research furthermore I

1954
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:49,260
would add that schools and Ministries

1955
01:19:46,500 --> 01:19:51,679
represented by this panel also have many

1956
01:19:49,260 --> 01:19:53,880
young scholars who are traditional

1957
01:19:51,679 --> 01:19:56,699
dispensationalists in other interviews

1958
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:59,460
Hummel suggests that in 20 years maybe

1959
01:19:56,699 --> 01:20:02,360
none will exist but the facts just don't

1960
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:05,400
bear out his claims but we must remember

1961
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:08,159
that one of Hummel's premises as

1962
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:10,440
articulated in various interviews is

1963
01:20:08,159 --> 01:20:12,780
that theological beliefs which are

1964
01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:15,060
accurate that reflect the Bible will

1965
01:20:12,780 --> 01:20:17,280
endure Through the Ages

1966
01:20:15,060 --> 01:20:19,560
a second premise he holds is that

1967
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:21,540
dispensationalism is in general and

1968
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:24,360
traditional dispensationalism in

1969
01:20:21,540 --> 01:20:27,120
particular is not accurate and therefore

1970
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:30,300
he concludes we should expect it not to

1971
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:32,400
be taught and to lose its influence and

1972
01:20:30,300 --> 01:20:34,800
so he tries to collect and put forth

1973
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:37,739
evidence and in this case that just

1974
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:40,800
doesn't bear out evidence to support his

1975
01:20:37,739 --> 01:20:42,420
thesis one thing that's a great

1976
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,820
encouragement to me

1977
01:20:42,420 --> 01:20:47,340
is all of you guys

1978
01:20:44,820 --> 01:20:50,460
yeah I am the old geezer on the group so

1979
01:20:47,340 --> 01:20:52,739
I look and I see a rather robust group

1980
01:20:50,460 --> 01:20:55,440
of guys that are younger and I'm greatly

1981
01:20:52,739 --> 01:20:57,600
encouraged by that uh that's encouraging

1982
01:20:55,440 --> 01:21:00,840
to those of us who are on the you know

1983
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:03,000
starting to step into the golden years

1984
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:05,460
earlier in the conversation Dr Muller

1985
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:07,679
asked a very interesting question that

1986
01:21:05,460 --> 01:21:09,960
is related to our discussion it's about

1987
01:21:07,679 --> 01:21:12,300
those Scholars who are defending

1988
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:14,580
inerrancy he refers to them as

1989
01:21:12,300 --> 01:21:16,620
fundamentalists and our listeners should

1990
01:21:14,580 --> 01:21:19,440
know that that term fundamentalist was a

1991
01:21:16,620 --> 01:21:22,140
very positive term at the time in all

1992
01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:24,840
segments of evangelicalism it involved

1993
01:21:22,140 --> 01:21:27,540
those conservative evangelicals who were

1994
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:30,360
defending the fundamentals of the faith

1995
01:21:27,540 --> 01:21:33,060
against the theological liberals denying

1996
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:35,400
the fundamentals of the faith join me

1997
01:21:33,060 --> 01:21:38,340
and listen with me another interesting

1998
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:40,380
thing Dr Hummel uh C Alan Russell wrote

1999
01:21:38,340 --> 01:21:42,480
a book I don't know a generation ago on

2000
01:21:40,380 --> 01:21:44,400
portraits of American fundamentalism and

2001
01:21:42,480 --> 01:21:46,080
and with the exception of matron they

2002
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:48,900
were all dispensational

2003
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:51,000
yeah there were I think seven of them

2004
01:21:48,900 --> 01:21:53,640
five of them were graduates of the

2005
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:55,920
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

2006
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:57,719
and and and there was no

2007
01:21:55,920 --> 01:22:01,199
dispensationalism taught

2008
01:21:57,719 --> 01:22:02,880
uh in their theological education

2009
01:22:01,199 --> 01:22:04,800
um so that raises a huge question how

2010
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:06,900
did how did these Urban pastors you

2011
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:08,760
mentioned William Bell Riley uh JC

2012
01:22:06,900 --> 01:22:11,040
Massey so many others how did these

2013
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:13,739
Urban pastors get this I'm very

2014
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:16,860
intrigued by Mueller's question because

2015
01:22:13,739 --> 01:22:19,739
as he indicated six of the seven of

2016
01:22:16,860 --> 01:22:22,340
these individuals highlighted

2017
01:22:19,739 --> 01:22:26,100
only one with the exception of Machin

2018
01:22:22,340 --> 01:22:28,320
were dispensationalists Mueller asks the

2019
01:22:26,100 --> 01:22:30,420
question how is it that men taught at

2020
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:33,239
Southern Seminary a seminary that didn't

2021
01:22:30,420 --> 01:22:34,980
teach dispensationalism at all how did

2022
01:22:33,239 --> 01:22:37,320
they come to dispensational beliefs

2023
01:22:34,980 --> 01:22:38,940
without being taught it in our theology

2024
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,800
courses

2025
01:22:38,940 --> 01:22:42,719
would anyone like to answer that

2026
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,580
question again I think it does go back

2027
01:22:42,719 --> 01:22:47,820
to what we talked about earlier the

2028
01:22:44,580 --> 01:22:50,760
Simplicity and straightforwardness of

2029
01:22:47,820 --> 01:22:52,800
the dispensational approach to scripture

2030
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:56,040
um and and it is interesting that

2031
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:58,460
Hummel's argument is that we've lost

2032
01:22:56,040 --> 01:23:03,480
market share in the Evangelical Academy

2033
01:22:58,460 --> 01:23:05,940
but he also says that Grassroots

2034
01:23:03,480 --> 01:23:07,860
dispensationalism is flourishing the

2035
01:23:05,940 --> 01:23:09,900
churches they're still there the pastors

2036
01:23:07,860 --> 01:23:13,080
are still there and I think that's a

2037
01:23:09,900 --> 01:23:14,820
testimony to the fact I mean we can talk

2038
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:16,679
all day about why we're losing markets

2039
01:23:14,820 --> 01:23:18,300
here in the academy but the fact that

2040
01:23:16,679 --> 01:23:20,400
the churches are still flourishing and

2041
01:23:18,300 --> 01:23:23,820
he admits this I think it's a testament

2042
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:25,920
to the fact that the ordinary man the

2043
01:23:23,820 --> 01:23:27,480
ordinary church member can look at the

2044
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:29,219
dispensational model and say you know

2045
01:23:27,480 --> 01:23:31,560
that makes a lot of sense that's what

2046
01:23:29,219 --> 01:23:33,600
the Bible says I don't really have to do

2047
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:37,260
any hermeneutical gymnastics to get

2048
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:39,900
there and so I I I I I think that

2049
01:23:37,260 --> 01:23:42,000
explains why people are coming out and

2050
01:23:39,900 --> 01:23:44,280
being dispensational

2051
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:45,420
you know the dispensationalism has

2052
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,640
always been

2053
01:23:45,420 --> 01:23:49,860
more of a movement in the churches than

2054
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:53,159
in the academy it's always been that way

2055
01:23:49,860 --> 01:23:55,280
in the modern since Darby on it's been a

2056
01:23:53,159 --> 01:23:57,659
church-based movement

2057
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:59,520
and I think that has bothered some of

2058
01:23:57,659 --> 01:24:01,920
the other guys because they're Academy

2059
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:04,500
first and they're thinking uh you know

2060
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:06,360
good Academy trained ministers and then

2061
01:24:04,500 --> 01:24:09,020
out into the churches uh but you know

2062
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:12,540
Scofield bible pass bypass the academy

2063
01:24:09,020 --> 01:24:14,940
dismissalism has primarily spread as a

2064
01:24:12,540 --> 01:24:17,460
church movement and I think we need to

2065
01:24:14,940 --> 01:24:20,360
make sure that we don't uh disparage

2066
01:24:17,460 --> 01:24:20,360
that side of it

2067
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:24,360
probably probably the power of the local

2068
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:25,679
church still Paul they were they were in

2069
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,120
seminary but they were still in church

2070
01:24:25,679 --> 01:24:28,320
and I think that's where they were being

2071
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:29,699
impacted

2072
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:32,159
uh

2073
01:24:29,699 --> 01:24:34,199
by preaching and

2074
01:24:32,159 --> 01:24:36,480
studying to preach right there you go

2075
01:24:34,199 --> 01:24:39,179
you have to Grapple with all that

2076
01:24:36,480 --> 01:24:42,719
as you're in the study to get ready to

2077
01:24:39,179 --> 01:24:45,000
stand up in the Pulpit you know

2078
01:24:42,719 --> 01:24:46,679
all right before we end this podcast I

2079
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:48,960
do want to share a couple Clips where

2080
01:24:46,679 --> 01:24:51,060
Mueller does say a few kind statements

2081
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:53,340
about dispensationalism so watch these

2082
01:24:51,060 --> 01:24:55,980
with me and we'll discuss them

2083
01:24:53,340 --> 01:24:58,679
I I if I may well stipulate a couple of

2084
01:24:55,980 --> 01:25:00,300
things here number one

2085
01:24:58,679 --> 01:25:02,120
um classical dispensationalists are

2086
01:25:00,300 --> 01:25:05,040
theologically conservative

2087
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:07,380
uh classical dispensationalists are

2088
01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:09,120
biblicists in the and I mean that not as

2089
01:25:07,380 --> 01:25:10,920
a criticism they're deeply committed to

2090
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:12,719
the scripture and to what they see is

2091
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:16,260
the right reading of scripture

2092
01:25:12,719 --> 01:25:19,100
and uh and and they are Ardent in terms

2093
01:25:16,260 --> 01:25:21,179
uh of their commitment as Bible students

2094
01:25:19,100 --> 01:25:21,900
they're very serious students of the

2095
01:25:21,179 --> 01:25:24,120
Bible

2096
01:25:21,900 --> 01:25:26,400
and and so at several points in my life

2097
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:28,920
a wonderful classical dispensationalists

2098
01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:30,780
have had a big spiritual influence on my

2099
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:33,179
life and I'm I'm very thankful for that

2100
01:25:30,780 --> 01:25:35,760
well I do appreciate this nod from Dr

2101
01:25:33,179 --> 01:25:37,920
Mohler and and I I see it even more from

2102
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:40,440
from Dr hommel

2103
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:43,020
um it's true that the yes the southern

2104
01:25:40,440 --> 01:25:44,940
baptist can a conservative resurgent was

2105
01:25:43,020 --> 01:25:47,280
one on the backs of a lot of

2106
01:25:44,940 --> 01:25:49,440
dispensationalists and and he knows it

2107
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:51,179
and I appreciate the fact that he

2108
01:25:49,440 --> 01:25:52,860
recognizes that I I wish it would

2109
01:25:51,179 --> 01:25:54,360
translate into something a little bit

2110
01:25:52,860 --> 01:25:56,820
less scornful

2111
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:58,920
um along the way but but I I do

2112
01:25:56,820 --> 01:26:00,659
appreciate the naught he gives yeah I

2113
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:03,000
appreciate it too and his understanding

2114
01:26:00,659 --> 01:26:06,120
and his use of the word biblicist

2115
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:09,120
uh was important to me uh and I've told

2116
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:11,100
this story before I once had John wolver

2117
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:13,560
when I was pastoring in Arlington Texas

2118
01:26:11,100 --> 01:26:15,239
while I was a student at Dallas seminary

2119
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:18,239
in the PHD program

2120
01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:20,400
uh I had Dr walver come out to speak at

2121
01:26:18,239 --> 01:26:22,739
my church on a Sunday morning

2122
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:25,199
and I took him to a a steakhouse

2123
01:26:22,739 --> 01:26:28,500
afterwards for lunch uh him and his wife

2124
01:26:25,199 --> 01:26:30,360
and my wife and me and we and while we

2125
01:26:28,500 --> 01:26:32,159
were eating I asked him this question Dr

2126
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:34,920
wolvard what's the

2127
01:26:32,159 --> 01:26:36,900
greatest issue facing dispensationalism

2128
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:39,300
today

2129
01:26:36,900 --> 01:26:40,440
he looked at me and he kind of shook his

2130
01:26:39,300 --> 01:26:42,840
head a little bit and says young man

2131
01:26:40,440 --> 01:26:45,120
it's what it's always been

2132
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:48,600
the inerrancy of the Bible

2133
01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:51,239
and then I got a little lecture from him

2134
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:52,860
on how dispensationalism is the best

2135
01:26:51,239 --> 01:26:56,820
approach

2136
01:26:52,860 --> 01:26:59,820
to the Bible to express and defend

2137
01:26:56,820 --> 01:27:02,100
the truth of the Bible

2138
01:26:59,820 --> 01:27:05,280
and I'll never forget that encounter I

2139
01:27:02,100 --> 01:27:06,800
had with Dr Walbert and so bibliology is

2140
01:27:05,280 --> 01:27:09,179
high it's not just about eschatology

2141
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:11,639
it's our approach to the Bible our

2142
01:27:09,179 --> 01:27:13,620
hermeneutics and our belief that the

2143
01:27:11,639 --> 01:27:16,199
Bible is from God we really press that

2144
01:27:13,620 --> 01:27:18,540
and take it at face value and of course

2145
01:27:16,199 --> 01:27:20,540
that biblical statement in Chicago the

2146
01:27:18,540 --> 01:27:22,860
statement inarrancy there were many

2147
01:27:20,540 --> 01:27:25,020
dispensationalists that were involved in

2148
01:27:22,860 --> 01:27:27,000
that and had a big hand in that were

2149
01:27:25,020 --> 01:27:29,340
very instrumental you know I would add

2150
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:32,040
it it presents a real interesting

2151
01:27:29,340 --> 01:27:34,340
cautionary tale an interview it's kind

2152
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:37,020
of an echo chamber

2153
01:27:34,340 --> 01:27:39,060
sympathetic viewpoints and it's really

2154
01:27:37,020 --> 01:27:41,280
easy for us to get into the same kind of

2155
01:27:39,060 --> 01:27:44,219
boat talking to our own sympathetic

2156
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:45,360
audiences uh and and it's a reminder of

2157
01:27:44,219 --> 01:27:47,520
how

2158
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:49,800
we need to be really careful and

2159
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:51,600
cautious in in how we discuss our

2160
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:54,840
brothers in Christ and I really

2161
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:58,500
appreciate this comment uh that that

2162
01:27:54,840 --> 01:28:00,900
reminds their listeners that uh we are

2163
01:27:58,500 --> 01:28:02,760
seeking to be biblicists and I think if

2164
01:28:00,900 --> 01:28:04,739
we were having a dialogue and we started

2165
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,540
with that ground we could have some

2166
01:28:04,739 --> 01:28:09,000
fantastic conversations well then

2167
01:28:06,540 --> 01:28:11,760
there's also another clip Miller this is

2168
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,860
a additional kind words let's watch that

2169
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:16,139
clip you know the the most famous

2170
01:28:13,860 --> 01:28:18,600
graduate of this institution I think in

2171
01:28:16,139 --> 01:28:19,920
the 20th century was W.A Criswell of the

2172
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:21,719
First Baptist Church of Dallas who

2173
01:28:19,920 --> 01:28:23,600
became a very dear friend

2174
01:28:21,719 --> 01:28:25,920
and it was an Ardent classical

2175
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:28,080
dispensationalist well I deeply

2176
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:29,880
appreciated your book and uh I I also

2177
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:32,280
want to point out that

2178
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:34,320
um the conservative Resurgence in the

2179
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,900
Southern Baptist convention was really

2180
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:39,420
only made possible by large Church

2181
01:28:36,900 --> 01:28:40,860
pastors almost all of whom were

2182
01:28:39,420 --> 01:28:43,139
dispensationalists and much of their

2183
01:28:40,860 --> 01:28:44,760
credibility uh for conviction much of

2184
01:28:43,139 --> 01:28:47,219
the platform that they had built and

2185
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:49,080
that includes Dr Criswell was based upon

2186
01:28:47,219 --> 01:28:50,760
an Unapologetic uh classical

2187
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:53,100
dispensationalism

2188
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:54,360
so I want to say uh that I have a great

2189
01:28:53,100 --> 01:28:56,520
deal of respect

2190
01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:58,260
uh for so many of those preachers so

2191
01:28:56,520 --> 01:29:00,659
many of those pastors so many of those

2192
01:28:58,260 --> 01:29:02,699
Bible teachers who so fervently believed

2193
01:29:00,659 --> 01:29:04,199
in the scripture and and who defended

2194
01:29:02,699 --> 01:29:05,580
the truth of scripture so

2195
01:29:04,199 --> 01:29:07,860
comprehensively

2196
01:29:05,580 --> 01:29:10,679
Dr Savelle would you like to comment on

2197
01:29:07,860 --> 01:29:12,780
that as a beneficiary of the

2198
01:29:10,679 --> 01:29:15,300
conservative Resurgence at Southwestern

2199
01:29:12,780 --> 01:29:18,659
yeah I mean I appreciate the sentiment I

2200
01:29:15,300 --> 01:29:20,699
think like it was said previously

2201
01:29:18,659 --> 01:29:23,239
you know is there something to be said

2202
01:29:20,699 --> 01:29:26,040
for the fact that by and large

2203
01:29:23,239 --> 01:29:29,340
dispensational institutions weren't

2204
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:31,800
eaten worked in need of a resurgence

2205
01:29:29,340 --> 01:29:33,540
it was the southern baptist seminaries

2206
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:37,020
that were really struggling

2207
01:29:33,540 --> 01:29:40,139
and is there you know something uh there

2208
01:29:37,020 --> 01:29:42,060
as well and I'm very thankful for the uh

2209
01:29:40,139 --> 01:29:43,980
conservative Resurgence I went to

2210
01:29:42,060 --> 01:29:46,440
Criswell College

2211
01:29:43,980 --> 01:29:48,120
which uh was founded by Chris well

2212
01:29:46,440 --> 01:29:50,580
basically

2213
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:53,340
on the foundation of inerrancy so that's

2214
01:29:50,580 --> 01:29:55,620
why I chose the school so I I very much

2215
01:29:53,340 --> 01:29:59,639
believe that I was uh

2216
01:29:55,620 --> 01:30:01,500
uh really really my first inkling

2217
01:29:59,639 --> 01:30:03,179
towards Ministry was after reading a

2218
01:30:01,500 --> 01:30:04,800
book called The Battle for the Bible by

2219
01:30:03,179 --> 01:30:07,020
Harold lindsell

2220
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:09,620
where he sounds his cautionary tale

2221
01:30:07,020 --> 01:30:12,719
including the Southern Baptist

2222
01:30:09,620 --> 01:30:14,280
convention and its Seminary so I think

2223
01:30:12,719 --> 01:30:17,219
he's right

2224
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:18,420
uh if anything I said I would uh would

2225
01:30:17,219 --> 01:30:21,540
have wished he would have made that

2226
01:30:18,420 --> 01:30:24,540
comment early rather than late but I

2227
01:30:21,540 --> 01:30:27,320
think he is right and I appreciate it

2228
01:30:24,540 --> 01:30:31,020
so some of those pastors W.A Criswell

2229
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:33,120
Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley those

2230
01:30:31,020 --> 01:30:35,340
are three of the the names that most

2231
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:37,380
people are familiar with they were uh

2232
01:30:35,340 --> 01:30:39,360
traditional dispensationalists and well

2233
01:30:37,380 --> 01:30:42,540
one last question as we bring this

2234
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:44,820
conversation to a close Dr Hummel argues

2235
01:30:42,540 --> 01:30:47,639
that there are not many scholarly Works

2236
01:30:44,820 --> 01:30:49,219
being produced by dispensationalists and

2237
01:30:47,639 --> 01:30:52,020
even less by traditional

2238
01:30:49,219 --> 01:30:55,260
dispensationalists any comments on that

2239
01:30:52,020 --> 01:30:57,560
and I think there is an element of Truth

2240
01:30:55,260 --> 01:30:59,760
for sure in the charge that

2241
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:02,880
dispensationalists could stand to

2242
01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:04,500
receive greater attention in the

2243
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:06,440
scholarly academic publishing world

2244
01:31:04,500 --> 01:31:09,000
there's no question that that's true

2245
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:11,280
that is probably one of the takeaways

2246
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:14,820
that that we can get from this kind of a

2247
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:17,580
conversation that dispensationalists

2248
01:31:14,820 --> 01:31:20,880
should probably be more involved than we

2249
01:31:17,580 --> 01:31:23,280
have been in those venues uh that being

2250
01:31:20,880 --> 01:31:25,320
said it's not as though nobody is out

2251
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:27,480
there writing scholarly works from a

2252
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:29,219
dispensational perspective uh

2253
01:31:27,480 --> 01:31:32,040
traditional dispensationalists are still

2254
01:31:29,219 --> 01:31:34,380
published routinely in in bibsack uh

2255
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:35,760
that's biblical Sakura the uh the

2256
01:31:34,380 --> 01:31:38,460
publication of Dallas Theological

2257
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:40,800
Seminary Master Seminary Journal is is

2258
01:31:38,460 --> 01:31:42,900
putting out material uh here at Baptist

2259
01:31:40,800 --> 01:31:45,000
Bible Seminary we publish the Journal of

2260
01:31:42,900 --> 01:31:47,760
ministry and theology everything we

2261
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:50,580
publish there is from a uh a traditional

2262
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:53,100
dispensational perspective now there are

2263
01:31:50,580 --> 01:31:55,260
other academic journals as well that are

2264
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:56,580
circulating that I'm sure some of uh

2265
01:31:55,260 --> 01:31:58,800
some of you other gentlemen could

2266
01:31:56,580 --> 01:32:01,199
address but then there's a lot of

2267
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:03,780
popular level materials still being

2268
01:32:01,199 --> 01:32:06,120
churned out and one of the things that

2269
01:32:03,780 --> 01:32:08,520
that Hummel and Mueller sort of did in

2270
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:10,800
their discussion of the publishing world

2271
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:12,780
and Evangelical or excuse me and

2272
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:15,420
dispensationalism's involvement in it

2273
01:32:12,780 --> 01:32:19,020
was they sort of characterized popular

2274
01:32:15,420 --> 01:32:23,100
level dispensational Publications as

2275
01:32:19,020 --> 01:32:24,780
very fringy very sensationalistic very

2276
01:32:23,100 --> 01:32:26,420
given over to the date Setters and

2277
01:32:24,780 --> 01:32:30,179
things of that nature

2278
01:32:26,420 --> 01:32:32,040
which is certainly true in places of

2279
01:32:30,179 --> 01:32:34,020
course that same charge could be leveled

2280
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:37,199
against certain non-dispensationalist

2281
01:32:34,020 --> 01:32:39,179
groups as well uh but there is a

2282
01:32:37,199 --> 01:32:41,580
mountain of material constantly coming

2283
01:32:39,179 --> 01:32:44,159
out at the popular level written by

2284
01:32:41,580 --> 01:32:46,679
dispensational writers that is not

2285
01:32:44,159 --> 01:32:50,360
anything close to sensationalism

2286
01:32:46,679 --> 01:32:53,340
newspaper exegesis date setting Etc

2287
01:32:50,360 --> 01:32:55,139
I worked for Regular Baptist Press for

2288
01:32:53,340 --> 01:32:57,540
eight years we were constantly putting

2289
01:32:55,139 --> 01:33:00,540
out books Bible studies uh Church

2290
01:32:57,540 --> 01:33:03,480
educational resources a bi-monthly

2291
01:33:00,540 --> 01:33:04,880
magazine uh it's not that everything we

2292
01:33:03,480 --> 01:33:07,560
wrote was specifically on

2293
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:09,840
dispensationalism per se but everything

2294
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:11,360
that we published was from an

2295
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:14,400
unapologetically traditional

2296
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:16,679
dispensationalist perspective and that

2297
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:19,620
material is used by thousands and

2298
01:33:16,679 --> 01:33:23,040
thousands of churches all across America

2299
01:33:19,620 --> 01:33:25,679
and around the world I could point to

2300
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:27,540
people like Mark Hitchcock who is

2301
01:33:25,679 --> 01:33:31,080
constantly publishing books these days

2302
01:33:27,540 --> 01:33:33,360
Ron Rhodes other very high Caliber men

2303
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:34,800
that are popularizing Bible teaching

2304
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:36,020
from a traditional dispensational

2305
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:39,600
perspective

2306
01:33:36,020 --> 01:33:42,000
and they are being published and and I'm

2307
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,860
I'm grateful for that I think it's easy

2308
01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:46,020
to kind of pick out a few of the

2309
01:33:43,860 --> 01:33:48,540
nuttiest crack pots from a particular

2310
01:33:46,020 --> 01:33:50,520
movement and try to sort of characterize

2311
01:33:48,540 --> 01:33:53,280
the entire movement that way

2312
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:55,560
uh but that's not really fair and every

2313
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:58,920
movement has their their sort of extreme

2314
01:33:55,560 --> 01:34:01,940
uh you know Kooks and and sort of fringy

2315
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:04,199
characters uh dispensationalist

2316
01:34:01,940 --> 01:34:06,840
dispensationalism is no exception to

2317
01:34:04,199 --> 01:34:10,199
that but uh I think we're still putting

2318
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:12,420
out a lot of decent quality material and

2319
01:34:10,199 --> 01:34:15,060
uh that didn't seem to go acknowledged

2320
01:34:12,420 --> 01:34:17,100
in the interview Dr Cohn you're uh you

2321
01:34:15,060 --> 01:34:19,260
started a few publishing houses a few uh

2322
01:34:17,100 --> 01:34:21,120
Journal uh journals as well would you

2323
01:34:19,260 --> 01:34:24,000
like to add to that

2324
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:26,159
yeah I I appreciate that what David is

2325
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:27,600
saying there you know about 20 years ago

2326
01:34:26,159 --> 01:34:30,960
and it corresponds a little bit with the

2327
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:32,600
timing that Mark was talking about uh it

2328
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:35,159
became very difficult for

2329
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:36,960
dispensationalists to get published

2330
01:34:35,159 --> 01:34:39,420
um and it would be great to do a

2331
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:40,800
follow-up a discussion of that I'd love

2332
01:34:39,420 --> 01:34:44,159
to have that discussion with you and

2333
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:48,179
Mark and others but just to very quickly

2334
01:34:44,159 --> 01:34:51,900
mention out of that market change there

2335
01:34:48,179 --> 01:34:54,780
are a few specific factors I think very

2336
01:34:51,900 --> 01:34:58,199
very direct factors but out of that that

2337
01:34:54,780 --> 01:35:00,900
market change Rose not just for

2338
01:34:58,199 --> 01:35:04,199
dispensational thinkers but uh

2339
01:35:00,900 --> 01:35:05,600
democratization of ideas uh publishing

2340
01:35:04,199 --> 01:35:09,600
Distributing

2341
01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:12,540
marketing became available really in a

2342
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:16,500
way uh that that had never happened

2343
01:35:12,540 --> 01:35:19,159
before and so now you've got alongside

2344
01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:22,920
some of the more stodgy mainstream

2345
01:35:19,159 --> 01:35:25,380
venues that are that are Echo Chambers

2346
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:28,020
you've got some new publishing houses

2347
01:35:25,380 --> 01:35:30,120
again within the last 20 years I can

2348
01:35:28,020 --> 01:35:31,679
think of 10 I could probably name 10

2349
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:34,620
right now that are putting out

2350
01:35:31,679 --> 01:35:37,139
outstanding solid Biblical uh work and

2351
01:35:34,620 --> 01:35:40,980
many of the the folks involved in this

2352
01:35:37,139 --> 01:35:43,020
in this session today are involved in

2353
01:35:40,980 --> 01:35:45,920
writing for those entities whether it's

2354
01:35:43,020 --> 01:35:48,320
journals or or uh

2355
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:50,400
monographs and Publications

2356
01:35:48,320 --> 01:35:52,440
just the fact that you're doing this

2357
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:53,460
podcast you're you're one of a growing

2358
01:35:52,440 --> 01:35:57,420
number

2359
01:35:53,460 --> 01:35:59,040
and if if we want to be fair there's a

2360
01:35:57,420 --> 01:36:00,600
tremendous amount of high quality

2361
01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:03,420
scholarly material coming from

2362
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:05,400
dispensational thinkers across uh

2363
01:36:03,420 --> 01:36:08,280
publication lines with various

2364
01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:10,620
publishing houses it's just not with the

2365
01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:12,600
mainstream Publishers because the

2366
01:36:10,620 --> 01:36:14,219
mainstream Publishers and there are a

2367
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:17,639
few that again they're coming from a

2368
01:36:14,219 --> 01:36:20,100
tradition that just is not compatible so

2369
01:36:17,639 --> 01:36:24,360
there's a lot of reasons as to why but

2370
01:36:20,100 --> 01:36:27,540
personally I'm very excited about uh the

2371
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:29,520
the the youth movement and the the older

2372
01:36:27,540 --> 01:36:32,520
wisdom that's alongside we've got a lot

2373
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:34,440
of great thinkers people rooted in the

2374
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:36,840
church who are doing wonderful things in

2375
01:36:34,440 --> 01:36:38,880
in publishing and writing as means of

2376
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:40,739
teaching the Next Generation gentlemen

2377
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:43,380
thank you for taking the time out of

2378
01:36:40,739 --> 01:36:47,040
your very busy schedules especially this

2379
01:36:43,380 --> 01:36:49,320
time of the year to record this episode

2380
01:36:47,040 --> 01:36:51,120
I would like to end this podcast as I

2381
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:54,719
began it expressing how personally

2382
01:36:51,120 --> 01:36:57,900
thankful I am to Dr Mohler for a strong

2383
01:36:54,719 --> 01:36:59,880
stance on the inerrancy of scripture I'm

2384
01:36:57,900 --> 01:37:01,679
personally thankful for its huge and

2385
01:36:59,880 --> 01:37:03,300
virtually single-handed part in the

2386
01:37:01,679 --> 01:37:05,880
conservative reshaping of Southern

2387
01:37:03,300 --> 01:37:08,820
Seminary and I'm thankful for his

2388
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:11,280
willingness to take biblical stances on

2389
01:37:08,820 --> 01:37:14,340
cultural issues in the world today that

2390
01:37:11,280 --> 01:37:16,199
are not at all popular

2391
01:37:14,340 --> 01:37:18,420
that is why this interview is so

2392
01:37:16,199 --> 01:37:19,500
disheartening to me and to many on this

2393
01:37:18,420 --> 01:37:21,960
panel

2394
01:37:19,500 --> 01:37:23,639
I'd like to summarize and highlight some

2395
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:25,860
of the areas that I believe Dr Hummel

2396
01:37:23,639 --> 01:37:28,679
and Dr Mueller were wrong

2397
01:37:25,860 --> 01:37:31,080
first dispensational schools are not

2398
01:37:28,679 --> 01:37:33,060
small and weaning in influence Dallas

2399
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:36,060
Theological Seminary a dispensational

2400
01:37:33,060 --> 01:37:38,400
school is the largest non-denominational

2401
01:37:36,060 --> 01:37:40,739
seminary in the United States

2402
01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:43,800
Liberty University is the largest

2403
01:37:40,739 --> 01:37:46,139
seminary in the United States and it too

2404
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:48,780
is dispensational statement of faith

2405
01:37:46,139 --> 01:37:50,580
they both hold to a future for ethnic

2406
01:37:48,780 --> 01:37:52,860
National Israel

2407
01:37:50,580 --> 01:37:54,300
both teach a pre-tribulational Rapture

2408
01:37:52,860 --> 01:37:56,060
and believe that there is a future

2409
01:37:54,300 --> 01:37:58,560
seven-year tribulation period on Earth

2410
01:37:56,060 --> 01:38:01,199
both schools hold to a pre-millennial

2411
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:03,780
return of Christ both schools believe in

2412
01:38:01,199 --> 01:38:05,520
a literal 1 000 year reign of Christ and

2413
01:38:03,780 --> 01:38:07,679
a belief in the futuristic understanding

2414
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:09,780
of the Book of Revelation

2415
01:38:07,679 --> 01:38:11,639
additionally there are many mid-size and

2416
01:38:09,780 --> 01:38:13,679
smaller dispensational schools who are

2417
01:38:11,639 --> 01:38:16,139
having a much larger impact in churches

2418
01:38:13,679 --> 01:38:17,340
colleges universities and seminaries in

2419
01:38:16,139 --> 01:38:19,320
the United States and around the world

2420
01:38:17,340 --> 01:38:22,020
than we can measure

2421
01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:24,659
just three examples were mentioned

2422
01:38:22,020 --> 01:38:26,940
second traditional dispensationalist

2423
01:38:24,659 --> 01:38:30,420
Scholars are not virtually all over the

2424
01:38:26,940 --> 01:38:32,940
age of 65. that's just manifestly false

2425
01:38:30,420 --> 01:38:34,980
this very panel shows that this is not

2426
01:38:32,940 --> 01:38:37,800
the case and I have about seven other

2427
01:38:34,980 --> 01:38:39,260
colleagues well under the age of 65 who

2428
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:41,580
are dispensational traditional

2429
01:38:39,260 --> 01:38:45,120
dispensationalists several are younger

2430
01:38:41,580 --> 01:38:47,400
than me I'm only 46. the schools and

2431
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:50,040
Ministries represented by this panel

2432
01:38:47,400 --> 01:38:52,020
also have many young scholars who are

2433
01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:53,880
dispensational in general and

2434
01:38:52,020 --> 01:38:54,780
traditional dispensationalists in

2435
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:59,120
particular

2436
01:38:54,780 --> 01:39:02,280
third dispensational thought is not new

2437
01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:05,460
this old argument has been rebutted

2438
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:08,100
often and decisively most recently in

2439
01:39:05,460 --> 01:39:11,580
the book edited by Dr Corey Marsh and Dr

2440
01:39:08,100 --> 01:39:14,520
James Fazio entitled discovering

2441
01:39:11,580 --> 01:39:16,800
dispensationalism subtitled tracing the

2442
01:39:14,520 --> 01:39:20,580
development of dispensational thought

2443
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:22,139
from the first to the 21st century I

2444
01:39:20,580 --> 01:39:25,320
encourage our listeners to go back and

2445
01:39:22,139 --> 01:39:28,679
listen to episodes number 76 number 77

2446
01:39:25,320 --> 01:39:31,199
and number 78 on the history of

2447
01:39:28,679 --> 01:39:34,260
dispensational thought

2448
01:39:31,199 --> 01:39:36,120
fourth dispensationalism is not suspect

2449
01:39:34,260 --> 01:39:37,920
because it is the product of creative

2450
01:39:36,120 --> 01:39:40,199
minds of Engineers and lawyers rather

2451
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:43,199
than trained theologians and exegetes

2452
01:39:40,199 --> 01:39:45,900
this was emphasized by Dr Hummel and Dr

2453
01:39:43,199 --> 01:39:49,380
Mohler while not once discussing a

2454
01:39:45,900 --> 01:39:51,600
single biblical passage we who are on

2455
01:39:49,380 --> 01:39:54,239
this round table are not married to any

2456
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:57,840
system we are not married to any person

2457
01:39:54,239 --> 01:40:00,840
neither Darby chafer ryrie nor Calvin

2458
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:03,659
Hodge or burkhoff having studied the

2459
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:06,300
scriptures we believe that a proper

2460
01:40:03,659 --> 01:40:10,040
understanding of the grand Narrative of

2461
01:40:06,300 --> 01:40:12,719
scripture leads us to be dispensational

2462
01:40:10,040 --> 01:40:13,800
Fifth and finally there are scholarly

2463
01:40:12,719 --> 01:40:15,960
Works being written by

2464
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:18,300
dispensationalists today and Lord

2465
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:20,760
willing will continue to be written for

2466
01:40:18,300 --> 01:40:22,739
years to come we have listed and

2467
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:24,840
discussed just a small sampling of the

2468
01:40:22,739 --> 01:40:27,239
theological journals Publishers and

2469
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:29,040
books that are written and edited by

2470
01:40:27,239 --> 01:40:31,739
dispensationalists

2471
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:33,659
in my opinion we have responded to the

2472
01:40:31,739 --> 01:40:36,480
historical inaccuracies and logical

2473
01:40:33,659 --> 01:40:38,340
fallacies that Dr Hummel and Dr Muller

2474
01:40:36,480 --> 01:40:40,040
articulated in their thinking in public

2475
01:40:38,340 --> 01:40:42,060
episode

2476
01:40:40,040 --> 01:40:44,040
dispensationalism cannot simply be

2477
01:40:42,060 --> 01:40:46,320
explained away as just a cultural

2478
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:50,000
phenomenon traced back to one

2479
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:52,440
influential man John Nelson Darby rather

2480
01:40:50,000 --> 01:40:54,420
dispensationalism is the best

2481
01:40:52,440 --> 01:40:56,580
explanation of the grand Narrative of

2482
01:40:54,420 --> 01:40:59,040
scripture the best explanation of the

2483
01:40:56,580 --> 01:41:00,960
human history recorded in the Bible and

2484
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:02,820
it flows out of the best set of

2485
01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:04,860
hermeneutical principles of Bible

2486
01:41:02,820 --> 01:41:06,840
interpretation

2487
01:41:04,860 --> 01:41:09,300
Dr Hummel has stated in multiple

2488
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:12,000
interviews and in his own book that he

2489
01:41:09,300 --> 01:41:13,800
was raised in a dispensational home but

2490
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:16,139
no longer holds those teachings because

2491
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:19,080
of the influence of into right and

2492
01:41:16,139 --> 01:41:22,440
others Dr humble is not an unbiased

2493
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:24,659
spectator with no dog in this fight in

2494
01:41:22,440 --> 01:41:26,580
this interview and in his book Dr Hummel

2495
01:41:24,659 --> 01:41:29,100
Cherry picks items that fit his

2496
01:41:26,580 --> 01:41:30,300
narrative and glosses over things that

2497
01:41:29,100 --> 01:41:33,780
do not

2498
01:41:30,300 --> 01:41:36,480
I find some great irony in Dr humble's

2499
01:41:33,780 --> 01:41:39,060
work he's critical of sensationalism of

2500
01:41:36,480 --> 01:41:41,940
some forms of dispensationalism yet his

2501
01:41:39,060 --> 01:41:44,520
book has a very Sensational title and

2502
01:41:41,940 --> 01:41:46,619
Sensational chapter headings why to sell

2503
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:49,020
copies he admits this in other

2504
01:41:46,619 --> 01:41:51,500
interviews the second to last chapter in

2505
01:41:49,020 --> 01:41:54,300
his book is entitled collapse

2506
01:41:51,500 --> 01:41:56,460
dispensationalism has not collapsed it's

2507
01:41:54,300 --> 01:41:59,340
still here and not just in the popular

2508
01:41:56,460 --> 01:42:01,320
culture but by Leading Scholars and the

2509
01:41:59,340 --> 01:42:03,260
scope of influence is not limited to

2510
01:42:01,320 --> 01:42:06,480
North America but around the world

2511
01:42:03,260 --> 01:42:08,820
Hummel's chapter title of collapse makes

2512
01:42:06,480 --> 01:42:10,980
me think of the popular rendition of

2513
01:42:08,820 --> 01:42:13,800
Mark Twain's response to his reported

2514
01:42:10,980 --> 01:42:16,560
death the reports of my death are

2515
01:42:13,800 --> 01:42:19,260
greatly exaggerated

2516
01:42:16,560 --> 01:42:21,320
I also find it ironic that Dr Hummel

2517
01:42:19,260 --> 01:42:24,239
describes the popularizers of modern

2518
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:26,699
dispensationalism as engineers and

2519
01:42:24,239 --> 01:42:29,460
lawyers rather than trained theologians

2520
01:42:26,699 --> 01:42:32,159
but he himself a historian by training

2521
01:42:29,460 --> 01:42:35,360
is in my opinion doing the work of a

2522
01:42:32,159 --> 01:42:38,699
theologian not a neutral historiographer

2523
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:41,699
again in my opinion his book is a

2524
01:42:38,699 --> 01:42:44,699
theological polemic not an unbiased

2525
01:42:41,699 --> 01:42:47,580
History Dr Hummel presented a particular

2526
01:42:44,699 --> 01:42:49,980
narrative he wanted to argue not a

2527
01:42:47,580 --> 01:42:51,960
history to tell

2528
01:42:49,980 --> 01:42:54,179
it's not shocking that this book was

2529
01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:56,520
published by erdman's it's not shocking

2530
01:42:54,179 --> 01:42:58,020
that it will be read by many it's not

2531
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:59,600
shocking that it will become more

2532
01:42:58,020 --> 01:43:01,560
talking points for

2533
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:04,020
anti-dispensationalists who will never

2534
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:06,000
give an objective ear to the arguments

2535
01:43:04,020 --> 01:43:09,119
of dispensationalists

2536
01:43:06,000 --> 01:43:10,980
but what is disheartening is that Dr

2537
01:43:09,119 --> 01:43:13,020
Mohler would allow this book to receive

2538
01:43:10,980 --> 01:43:14,940
so much positive attention on his widely

2539
01:43:13,020 --> 01:43:17,520
listened to thinking and public program

2540
01:43:14,940 --> 01:43:20,520
and in the process of discussing it

2541
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:24,239
would join Dr Hummel in misrepresenting

2542
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:27,900
and at times mocking the positions of

2543
01:43:24,239 --> 01:43:30,780
dispensationalists and that is my take

2544
01:43:27,900 --> 01:43:32,639
me thinking in public

2545
01:43:30,780 --> 01:43:35,040
well that brings today's Bible and

2546
01:43:32,639 --> 01:43:36,659
theology matters podcast to a close to

2547
01:43:35,040 --> 01:43:38,520
our listeners thank you for joining us

2548
01:43:36,659 --> 01:43:40,619
for another Bible and theology matters

2549
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:43,260
podcast I hope that you'll join us again

2550
01:43:40,619 --> 01:43:45,719
next week we release a new podcast every

2551
01:43:43,260 --> 01:43:47,580
Thursday morning each episode is a

2552
01:43:45,719 --> 01:43:51,060
discussion with Bible scholars and

2553
01:43:47,580 --> 01:43:54,540
expositors about all things Bible and

2554
01:43:51,060 --> 01:43:58,199
theology you won't want to miss it but

2555
01:43:54,540 --> 01:44:00,540
until next time never forget Bible and

2556
01:43:58,199 --> 01:44:01,500
theology matters because what you really

2557
01:44:00,540 --> 01:44:06,679
believe

2558
01:44:01,500 --> 01:44:06,679
determines how you really behave

2559
01:44:08,179 --> 01:44:13,380
Bible and theology matters podcast is a

2560
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:15,239
listener supported podcast devoted to

2561
01:44:13,380 --> 01:44:16,800
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2562
01:44:15,239 --> 01:44:18,659
knowledge of the word of God and in

2563
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:20,760
their relationship to the god of the

2564
01:44:18,659 --> 01:44:22,560
word to learn how you can partner with

2565
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:26,460
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2566
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:33,270
visit us at bibleandtheology matters.com

2567
01:44:26,460 --> 01:44:38,260
that's Bible a n d theology matters.com

2568
01:44:33,270 --> 01:44:38,260
[Music]