[Music]
welcome to the Bible and theology
matters podcast where we discuss all
things Bible and theology because it
matters what you really believe
determines how you really behave now
here's your host associate professor of
Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological
Seminary and professor of Bible and
theology for the national theological
college and graduate school Dr Paul
Weaver
good morning good afternoon good evening
whatever time it is when you are
listening or watching this podcast I'm
your host Paul Weaver each week I have
the wonderful privilege of leading
conversations with Bible scholars and
Bible expositors about all things Bible
and Theology and this week is no
exception what is unique though about
this week's podcast is I have not just
one or two Scholars on the program but
nine Scholars and theologians who all
have one or more earned doctorates and
are all on the faculty of at least 12
different dispensational colleges
universities and seminaries most of them
are full-time professors and like me are
also adjunct professors for other
dispensational schools several of them
have been or are presently chairs Deans
and presidents of the previously
mentioned institutions in today's
program we are going to be providing
some constructive criticism of a
recently released episode on the
thinking and public podcast the host of
this podcast is Dr Al Mohler the
president of Southern Seminary in
Louisville Kentucky if you're familiar
with this program he interviews various
authors about books that he believes are
profound and or have a very significant
contribution to evangelicalism and
culture I find these conversations very
interesting often insightful
thought-provoking and usually extremely
helpful I'm a regular listener and a big
fan
additionally I am personally very
thankful for Dr mohler's Strong stance
on the inerrancy of scripture his huge
part in the conservative Resurgence of
Southern Seminary and his willingness to
take biblical stances on cultural issues
in our world today that are not popular
so it was very disheartening when I
listened to Dr Mueller's interview which
was released last week Wednesday August
23rd 2023 the interview was with Dr
Daniel Hummel the author of The recently
released book the rise and fall of
dispensationalism it was disturbing to
me and many others because it was full
of mischaracterizations generalizations
straw man arguments guilt by association
comments at times mocking and in other
cases just ignorance regarding
dispensationalism
so in just one week's time at an
incredibly busy time of the year when
all of us are at the beginning of our
semesters these gentlemen were willing
to join me to discuss this subject
because it was also disconcerting to
them and important to them to set the
record straight
this podcast will not be going Point by
point over Dr Hummel's book itself I do
hope to do that at a later date or
possibly in a book review
but today's discussion will simply be a
dialogue about statements made by DR Al
Mohler and Dr Daniel Hummel about the
contents of Dr Hummel's book the rise
and fall of dispensationalism subtitled
how the Evangelical battle for the end
times shaped a nation
because I have so many guests we do not
have the time to give their full
biographical information instead I will
just mention their names in alphabetical
order and the dispensational schools and
institutions that they represent
my first guest is Dr John altizer
chairman and professor of biblical
studies at the national theological
College in graduate school which has
campuses in Jordan Lebanon Egypt and
East Africa
my second guess is Dr Doug Bookman
professor of Old and New Testament and
Bible Exposition at Shepherds
Theological Seminary and was formerly a
professor at the Masters University
my third guess is Dr Christopher Cohn
former president of Tyndale Theological
Seminary former president of Calvary
University and current president of
Colorado biblical University
my fourth guest is Dr David Gunn
associate professor of theology at
Baptist Bible seminary in Clark Summit
Pennsylvania and formerly the director
of The Regular Baptist Press
my fifth guest is Dr Scott Keane he is
the academic dean of ethnos 360 Bible
Institute online an instructor at Dallas
Theological Seminary my sixth guest is
Dr John Rinker he is the chair and
associate professor of Bible and
theology at Appalachian Bible College my
seventh guest is Dr Charles Savelle
assistant professor of Bible Exposition
at Dallas Theological Seminary and
formerly a professor at Southwestern
Baptist Theological Seminary my eighth
guest is Dr Mark snowberger he is the
professor of systematic theology and
apologetics at Detroit Baptist
Theological Seminary my ninth guest is
Dr Mike Stallard the former Dean and
professor of systematic theology at
Baptist Bible Seminary and currently
vice president of International
Ministries at the friends of Israel
gospel Ministry he is also the founder
and director of the Council on
dispensational hermeneutics
and of course I am Paul Weaver former
executive dean of the word of Life
hungry Bible Institute former academic
dean of the word of Life Global Bible
Institute which includes 10 accredited
teaching sites around the world and
currently associate professor of Bible
Exposition at Dallas Theological
Seminary gentlemen thank you for joining
me for this special edition of The Bible
and theology matters podcast
we're going to be thinking in public
about statements made by DR Al Mohler
and Dr Daniel Hummel now as
dispensationalists unfortunately we are
all too accustomed to
mischaracterizations and misinformation
about dispensationalism
it is not abnormal as Dr Charles ryrie
wrote many of these accusations are as
regular as a dripping faucet
it is very easy to become defensive and
respond in kind we're going to do our
very best to be fair and respectful to
both Dr Mohler and Dr Hummel but also be
direct and truthful about problems
logical fallacies and historical errors
that we have identified in their
thinking and arguments so with that
being said let's begin to discuss some
video clips of the exact words of Dr
Mohler and Dr Hummel in context
gentlemen as you know one of the most
common accusations leveled against
dispensationalists is that it is a
novelty a new invention if you will let
me play a clip of Dr Mohler speaking and
then get your response for our listeners
joining us on their favorite podcast
platform you may want to tune in on our
YouTube channel because we can we are
showing the video clips of these
conversations our YouTube channel is at
Bible and theology matters
just type in the YouTube browser at
Bible and theology matters as an
historical Theologian
um
you say all the way back in 200 years
to an historical Theologian that's not
very far back and that actually is I
think the most surprising part of the
story is that uh there there's virtually
nothing like dispensational Christianity
in the United States in any previous era
you've got a lot of eschatological
expectation you've got a lot of
eschatological speculation but nothing
like this is a system
that's right Dr snowberger you recently
wrote a chapter in the book that I
discussed in last week's podcast
entitled discovering dispensationalism
subtitled tracing the development of
dispensational thought from the first to
the 21st century the entire book in my
hand is seeking to respond to that
talking point that that Mueller gave
which is repeated Time and Time Again by
Covenant theologians and I might add has
been responded to time and time again
would you share your thoughts on this
issue
well in some ways I think Dr Mohler is
right
um he there isn't a the the
eschatological system distinctive to
dispensationalism is hard to find as a
system before Darby but I want to use
his words right back at him as a
historical Theologian 400 years isn't
much longer it's kind of like an
eight-year-old girl telling her
six-year-old sister that she's in a tour
but here's the thing
um there isn't an unbroken system of
eschatology among the reformed first it
was all Millennial then it was
post-millennial then after World War One
some went back to all Millennial While
others developed a whole new model
called inaugurated eschatology
which Henry and lad developed and then
Dr Mohler adopted all the while calling
dispensational pre-millennialism
unprecedented in its day and I think
it's high time we put an end to this
you're too new to be true argument I I
really think it's it's pointless
I appreciate Mark your comments I think
you're absolutely right I mean if uh I
would say the Covenant guys you know the
Roman Catholic Church would call you
Johnny come lately in your theological
views uh and so you need to have a
little honesty about the Integrity about
that question so I think they're they're
off base there and I appreciate the work
of William Watson and his book this has
been say something before Darby uh and
going back and uh you know he's with the
Lord now and that's a great loss to us
and I think 20 years from now I hope
that this will be a silly argument I I
think I've noticed there's been a change
in the way they argue uh they first it's
you know it originated with Darby and
now it's more it's been systematized
with Darby
a little bit different twist a little
bit like changing from global warming to
climate change but there's not a whole
lot of change in the actual argument and
I think we need to get past that and I
would the last thing I'd say I'd bring
up irenaeus in the second century he has
a very systematized or the most
systematized understanding of the flow
of History uh and uh he has everything
but the preach FIB Rapture that we have
and that goes back to the second century
if you if you look at our Michael
Horton's book introducing covenant
theology he goes back with a couple of
obscure statements about Covenant trying
to find some rootedness in early ancient
history for that and he doesn't have
very much and so I think we have the
higher ground on that going back to the
ancient Church fathers
yeah I would agree with everything that
Dr snowberger and staller just said I've
always found it sort of fascinating that
it's apparently okay for Martin Luther
to formulate the doctrine of
justification solofide in the 1500s
it's okay for the sin out of door to
formulate the Five Points of Calvinism
in the 1600s
covenant theology is also formulated in
the 1600s and then further refinement
goes on throughout the 1700s but then
all of a sudden when you get to the
1800s and John Nelson Darby no more
theological formulation or development
is allowed to occur now why is that it
seems rather arbitrary to me
but then if you just keep just keep
going a little ways all of a sudden
theological development is is
permissible again I've noticed for
example that many of those who level
this charge against dispensationalism
never apply the same argument against
let's say ventilian presuppositionalism
which is developed about a century after
Darby
so there does seem to be a certain
amount of arbitrariness and a bit of a
double standard that tends to get
applied in these discussions well Dr
Muller says that dispensationalism is
not simple enough there's another issue
that he brings up he says it's not
simple enough to be the legitimate
understanding of scripture please listen
in with me and I'll get your comments on
the other side yeah the Theologian in me
wants to stipulate up front that there
are systems and there are systems and uh
most systems are rather fundamental and
simple
uh you you could take covenant theology
as an example uh there's a very simple
and direct apprehension of covenant
theology old Covenant New Covenant
continuity discontinuity
when you talk about dispensationalism
you're talking about a system that that
actually kind of Rivals medieval uh you
know uh tomistic thought in its
complexity well I'm actually astounded
by those comments uh you know I I taught
a course at Baptist Bible Seminary a
dispensational school I taught a course
on covenant theology uh and trying to
help dispensationalists understand it
and and I don't think uh it is a simple
straightforward approach I just think
that's uh really unusual to hear that if
you read Michael Horton or you read
these other guys or even some of the
things of RC Sproul that you actually
Come Away with a simple understanding
and that it's easy to comprehend so I
simply reject the idea that they have a
simple model that's easy to grasp and I
do think dispensationalism is simple in
some ways and that accounts for its
growth in the United States I think
through the scope fulfilled Bible
and our hope magazine by uh Arnold C
Gable and others it exploded across the
United States and and people in the
churches were using the scope of I said
I now finally understand the Bible
uh and so it was you know they were
having something that they could sink
their teeth into not just the academic
Scholars with their abstractions
sometimes in a church I'll put up uh in
a message I'll put a Romans 8 up on the
screen and read the end of Romans 8 from
28 down to the 39 you know nothing will
separate us from the love of Christ I
said that's a clear promise isn't it and
it's a clear promise there are a few
hard things in those verses but it's a
clear promise
uh and then I go back and I put up the
end of Amos 9. and one day you're gonna
uh
uh is talking to Israel you're going to
be in your land never to be uprooted
again
what's hard to understand about that
if you take a grammatical historical
understanding of the scriptures we can
understand those things and I I think uh
it's hubris to kind of talk in this way
so I would just caution those who uh who
listen to this kind of thing go back and
read you know ryrie was called a
simpleton by the Covenant guides
and now they're almost talking the
opposite that's a problem with me
yes on the other hand it's interesting
that you just consider the nature of the
author of the scriptures uh our God
describes himself as having infinite
understanding
and yet he's revealed himself in the
human language to His Image bearers over
1400 years three languages 40 plus
authors
and so actually perhaps we should expect
a diversity
and a complexity to the Revelation which
is nevertheless coherent
because our God is Not contradictory he
is coherent he does have a grand story
so in fact the uh the nature of our
divine author
perhaps invites us to not expect
simplicity
but rather a complexity but is
nevertheless coherent that we can know
and understand Paul I'd love to add I I
think there's a rhetorical issue here as
well
the premise is that Simplicity is better
and uh as Dr rinkers just Illustrated
Simplicity is not necessarily better and
I think a lot of times we we find
ourselves trapped accepting premises and
playing defense when we can really get
into some of the rhetoric that's
happening uh that sounds really
convincing but I don't accept the
premise that it's better to have
Simplicity uh but I also agree with Dr
staller that that dispensationalism is
simple enough for uh grade school kids
to understand it uh and the anecdotal uh
kind of rhetorical device that's being
used here is is maybe helpful to
illustrate that uh we might go a little
bit deeper in thinking uh through this
argument as Dr staller and Dr Rinker
have
all right so I noticed a couple of
problems with Mueller's comments here
uh first of all he makes this comment
several times about how very complex and
convoluted dispensationalism is but he
doesn't really explain what he means by
that I I would have loved it if he had
actually tabulated what that complexity
consists of uh but he doesn't
if I had to guess just inferring from
some of the other comments that he makes
throughout the discussion uh he might
have things like Clarence Larkin's
charts in mind there maybe the precise
delineation of seven specific
dispensations or uh maybe even specific
interpretations of certain prophecies or
something like that
and if that is what Dr Mueller has in
mind when he makes these comments I I
think he's really comparing apples and
oranges because those things are not the
definition or the essence of
dispensationalism at this system's level
those things are outcomes exegetical
outcomes doctrinal conclusions that have
flowed from a dispensationalist system
but those things are not the essence of
dispensationalism itself and it seems to
me that what he's doing is he is
comparing those outcomes which are
necessarily going to be more complex
because they're dealing with the entire
scope of Revelation and the entire scope
of of systematic theology he's comparing
those with the simple essence of his
system covenant theology so there is a
bit of an apples and oranges problem
going on there
um I think if you were to deal with
dispensationalism at a simple systems
level
it can be defined in a relatively
straightforward simple way Charles ryrie
did that in his book dispensationalism
he defined it in three fairly simple
straightforward points in four pages so
that is not terribly complex in my
opinion and later dispensationalists
have even debated whether or not the
third of Riley's points is even
absolutely essential to the Integrity of
the system so if you were to compare
apples and apples I I'm not sure
Muller's argument here would stand
uh but the second problem that occurs to
me is that uh even if I we grant for the
sake of argument a part of that premise
but having said that even if you accept
that premise Simplicity would not be the
only measure by which you would assess a
theological system you would also want
to consider other factors like
explanatory scope how much of the
pertinent data is explained by the
system and congruity that's how well
does the system mesh with the actual
details of the data that it's attempting
to describe or explain and I would make
the case that dispensationalism actually
scores far far higher on both of those
points than covenant theology does I
think a little bit later on we're going
to talk about the metanarrative of
scripture and how dispensationalism does
a much better job explaining the
scriptural metanarrative than covenant
theology does that's explanatory scope
and I would make the case that
dispensationalism has a much easier time
dealing with the actual textual details
in a whole multitude of biblical
passages especially when we're dealing
with eschatological or covenantal
passages and so even if you concede that
dispensationalism perhaps is slightly
more complex at the system's level and
you could make that concession I guess
having two peoples of God is technically
more complex than having one people
people of God
nevertheless I I think it does so much
better than covenant theology on some of
these other points by which you would
assess a system that it more than makes
up for that perceived deficiency
I know we're going to come back and look
at the story of scripture and how it
relates to this but in this context
you know I look at this and and if I'm
reading this from a covenant
theologian's perspective and I start in
Genesis 1 and I'm tracing the storyline
I have these expectations of what God is
going to do with and through Israel then
I get to the gospels and if I take a
covenant perspective I have to pause the
story go back and redefine Israel
because you know they're going to
replace Israel with the church I have to
go back and clarify the whole back story
versus a simplistic reading of scripture
when I'm following the text I have these
expectations that God is going to do
things with and through Israel those
things are put on hold because of
Israel's rejection of Messiah and
they're resumed in the future so I think
a simple reading of scripture or a clear
reading the scripture is going to take
us there and it's actually not so
difficult not as difficult as what I
have to go back and re-explain from a
covenant theologian's perspective
very good and so historical grammatical
literal is important terminology we use
and when we talk about literal we're not
talking about we're not saying that we
don't believe in figures of speech or
symbols but we're trying to understand
what the original author under the
directional holy spirit is seeking to
communicate to the original recipients
in the normal plain language but using
figures of speech and metaphors but not
trying to find something deeper but
authorial intent is a big part of that
isn't it 18 minutes into the program and
almost one third of the way into it Dr
Mohler asks Dr Hummel to provide a
definition of dispensationalism we're
going to listen to that dialogue now but
I would like our viewers and listeners
to take note that Dr Hummel does not
define dispensationalism but rather
gives what he calls for what he
identifies as four of seven aspects of
dispensationalism so he he provides four
of those also note that Dr roller jumps
in and unfortunately mockingly and with
the laugh again trying to be simple he
says trying to be simple you have seven
definitions but that's not what he said
at all right he he said seven aspects so
let's listen to that video clip and get
your comment watch the video clip and
get your comment on the other end um a
definition of dispensationalism I give
in the introduction to the book uh seven
different uh sort of aspects of the
system of dispensationalism I think I'll
reduce that again again trying to be
simple you have seven definitions that's
right that's right
um but uh we mentioned it a bit so
dispensationalism is uh the term itself
comes from the dispensations that
dispensations divide all of uh history
into all of time into and these
dispensations map somewhat onto
different covenantal agreements God
makes with um with the Patriarchs and
and others but I think the key is that
for someone like Darby who believed in
seven dispensations which is the most
common number uh we currently live in
the sixth dispensation or the
dispensation of Grace or sometimes
called the church age which is a pretty
unique dispensation among the uh among
the seven dispensations the other six
are God really working through the
people of Israel to redeem the world to
make right what was put wrong
um but in the church age uh he is
working with the church with the the the
um uh the Misti The Mystery of the of
the Old Testament and so a lot of the
rules that um sort of govern God's
relationship with Humanity during those
other ages have a have a slightly
different play in in the church age but
that's one big part of of the system is
that there are these distinct
dispensations that give you a sense of
how God deals with Humanity in each
dispensation then there is the
eschatology which is sort of what's
going to happen between the sixth and
seventh dispensation the seventh one
would be the millennial Kingdom and that
is where a lot of focus has been on a
lot of thousands of books have been
written about sort of what's going to
unfold at the end of this age and that's
where the teaching of an imminent
Rapture comes in and this is God taking
away the church removing the church from
the Earth to resume his dealings with
Humanity through Israel and uh there's a
seven age or seven year tribulation
which gets a lot of focus
um and and then there's the millennial
Kingdom and then there's the final
Judgment at the end so there's the
eschatology as well
um and then there's finally uh this will
be the third one I'll say is a
hermeneutic that has changed over time
so when Darby was developing his his
ideas Darby was not what we call a
literalist which often gets associated
with dispensationalism today as a sort
of plain reading or a historical
grammatical reading of the text Darby
with anything but he was a very uh
opaque uh dizzying reader he saw
typologies on almost every page of the
Bible and and dozens of them sometimes
um and and actually Scofield did as well
there's hundreds of footnotes in
schofield's Bible about around
typologies well typologies get you in
all types of interesting situations as
you're reading so later
dispensationalists really try to tie
their system to a a plain or literal
reading of the Bible and
um and this is this aligns with a very
high view of the Bible and a view of the
inerrancy of the Bible and so those
things often go together for
dispensationalists but they become one
of the key sort of Defenders of a
literal reading of the text and
particularly the prophetic uh uh books
of the Bible and the apocalyptic uh Book
of Revelation
um and then they become sort of the the
the uh the agenda Setters in some ways
at least for the broader Church on
reading those uh books uh literally so
those are some aspects of the system
there are others as well including uh a
part of their soteriology or their view
of what it means to be saved that get
them into a number of controversies as
well particularly with more reformed
theologians over the decades well having
reviewed this video in context gentlemen
give me your thoughts it seems to me
that what they're trying to do
in the issue of definition is make a
dispensationalism just a grab bag of a
few things and they're reaching in the
bag and pulling out one at a time and
dealing with those and they're and
there's there's a disconnectedness of
those things and of course that's not at
all what most of us Believe In terms you
know I hold to ryrie synthesis I think
it's a good one uh and there's a
connectedness to all those things and
it's and we need to understand too that
dispensationalism is not defined by
dispensations
uh Charles Hodge had dispensations every
Covenant Theologian since Calvin has had
dispensations that's not the issue uh we
do have them they're part of ryrie's
doxological theme uh unifying the Bible
uh they're there but the essence is not
that the essence is grammatical
historical interpretation that leads to
a distinction between Israel and the
church uh and so we hover around ryrie
in terms of definitions and I wonder you
know what if we ask them to push it you
know how do you define covenant theology
and in their movement I bet we could
pull out a bunch of grab bag stuff and
put it in a bag and pull it out and talk
about it the same way and I'm not sure
they would be happy about that now the
list I saw uh of some of the things they
talked about one of them I wanted to
mention is this of the hermeneutic
changing over time
and I wanted to address that and
especially
bringing up typology
and I know I did my PhD dissertation on
rnoc Gable line and his typology was
very extreme
and if we take away his typology then
pretty much what's left is what you and
I believe
okay give or take
um so dispensationalism did shed some of
the typology of earlier days
but at the same time all of
evangelicalism had a broader typology
all of the evangelicalism was struggling
with those things and there was a
correction so there's a shift in
hermeneutics along those lines
throughout all of the evangelicalism and
dispensates them to just part of that
stream and so I think it's a little much
to pull that out and use it to try to be
a little bit critical of
dispensationalism sensationalism is not
necessarily a certain view of
soteriology for example he noted a view
of soteriology that gets them in
conflict with reformed theologians
but one can be a dispensationalist and
believe in a free Grace theology
position one can be a dispensational
theologian and believe in Calvinism yeah
I was quite shocked by Dr Hummel's uh
reference to that being one of the seven
he gave he listed four in that video
clip and he develops even further in the
book that he lumps free Grace theology
as part of dispensationalism and while
many on this group
um May uh be happy to hold that title
myself included there are others that
aren't and and that's not uh put you in
or out of dispensationalism that's
definitely not a defining Mark
obviously chafer was a well-known
dispensationalist and Riri was a
well-known dispensationalist and and
ryrie was a free Grace Theologian but
you can't just conflate those two and
say dispensationalists are all free
Grace regarding the free Grace Point I I
found that very fascinating that Dr
Hummel included that in his definition
of dispensationalism as you said Dr
Weaver that that is far from a part of
the essence of the dispensationalist
system in fact in my estimation the
ongoing disagreement between proponents
of lordship Salvation and free Grace
theology is probably one of the biggest
disagreements within the camp of
dispensationalism so clearly that cannot
be a defining aspect of
dispensationalism
the analogous claim would perhaps be to
say that oh a lot of reformed guys are
all millennialists or oh a lot of
reformed guys are Pato Baptists and
therefore we will Define reformed
theology as being essentially a
millennial or or Pato Baptist which
obviously wouldn't be true because
there's lots of guys like Dr Muller who
are both pre-mill and Credo Baptist and
hold to the reformed system so uh I I
agree with you Dr Weaver I think this
this surfaces uh perhaps a bit of
sloppiness in the research but that does
seem like a massive uh Miss in terms of
characterizing and defining the system
that he's writing about my simple
explanation of dispensationalism because
I do believe that you can state
dispensationalism in just a few words or
you can spend hours unpacking it because
it really involves that grand Narrative
of scripture as I see it
dispensationalism is an understanding of
human history as recorded in the Bible
regarding the plan hands of God in the
past in the present and in the future
and that flows out of a plain reading of
scripture it's not a system per se that
we want to impose upon the scriptures
but we believe that God is the author of
language and he has revealed himself in
a way that we can understand and using
the natural laws of communication well
Dr Cohn I know that you spent a lot of
time researching and writing in the area
of epistemology how how we know what we
know and the methodology we employ as it
relates to the interpretation of
scripture please share your thoughts on
my description maybe you would add to it
and develop it but how do you see that
as contrasted to what Hummel presented
and what Mueller seems to understand
well no surprise to you I love your
definition it is it is very concise
straightforward and it doesn't put you
in a position to have to defend many
specifics that aren't germane to the
discussion so I think it's an excellent
definition and it's biblically
defensible
and this is really the key issue I think
as it's been mentioned a few times
already the difference in these two
definitions or these two perceptions of
definitions is one of pedigree uh the
the the the Covenant Theologian is
generally uh working with uh uh
historical theology as part of its Canon
and so the pedigree of Covenant and
reformed theology is this this great uh
Corpus of uh of historical theology
there's a lot there
uh we see time and time again
that uh historical theology brought in
as part of the methodology and frankly
the most clear communication of that is
found in the Catholic catechism uh that
you you shall interpret the text uh
through the church so the church Capital
C and uh reform theology carries that
pedigree brings that same methodology
and if one doubts that just look at
Calvin's institutes the only discussion
he has in the institutes about
hermeneutics is specifically talking
about this historical theology model van
till did the same same thing so when
they're addressing epistemology
covenant theology is is not dealing with
hermeneutics as part of the methodology
on the other hand
dispensationalists absolutely are
we're understanding has this been said
several times in several ways that the
conclusions we draw are based on the
plain reading of scripture as you as you
phrased it here the plain reading of
scripture what what are the nouns and
verbs normally mean in the context in
the time they're written we call it
grammatical historical I like to call it
the literal grammatical historical uh
but it's the plain sense it's how we
communicate every day within context so
uh the pedigree for dispensational
thinkers is to look at scripture and
allow the text to guide and govern the
theology so the pedigree is is is
ideally text first biblical text first
uh now when when you look at a
Hummel's presentation as uh Mike
referred to it as kind of this grab bag
approach uh they're they're reading
dispensationalism through the pedigree
of that that historical theology so that
all they see is the disconnect and and
these various doctrines where uh we're
able to look at this and see how it
derived from scripture uh yeah and avoid
the theological conclusions instead
trying to have exegetical ones and of
course uh we all have to grow we all
have to be more consistent but I think
ryrie was focused on that uh clearly
stated and I think your definition is
absolutely on point because it does that
one of the points often a point of
mockery by Covenant theologians of us is
our charts dispensationalists are famous
for their charts to discuss the
outworking of God's administrations and
dispensations from one era to the next
and Hummel and Molar a mentioned a man
by the name of Clarence Larkin who
Hummel points out is an engineer by
trade by the way that was a bit of a
disparaging comment in other words he's
just a novice not an educated scholar
and he adds that Darby was a lawyer not
an educated scholar so let's listen to
Hummel on this point and get your take
on it one way to even just think about
this is the famous prophecy charts that
Clarence Larkin in particular
popularized all in the early 20th
century and if you if you zoom back you
don't look at the details they look like
uh instruments in a lab or something
like that they're drawn in a way uh that
really sort of tries to show the the
modernity or the scientific value of the
dispensationalist system and it's no
accident that people like Larkin were
engineers by training Darby was a lawyer
and you can see there's sort of a
professional appeal also to the
systematization that's happening Dr
Stalag you were an aerospace engineer
for eight years prior to be called being
called into the ministry would you like
to respond to Hummel's point that
dispensationalism was produced by
engineers and lawyers not trained
theologians yeah he was was a little bit
disparaging there on that point and I
and frankly uh I've known a lot of
Engineers who've been called into the
ministry and um
they've done well I think
but he forgets to mention something
about Clarence Larkin Clarence Larkin
pastored for over 20 years
he was 20 years a pastor in Northeast
Philadelphia I've been in that church
and they've got a plaque up to him there
and I go well he's a writer he studied
and he wrote more than just prophecy
things uh and so they're totally leaving
that part out I devoured uh
dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkin
the first year I was a Christian I
understand there was kind of excitement
about those things but the the charts
need to be studied but they also give a
form around which you can clarify things
so that's the point of charts and so
it'll certainly uh overdone and and let
me tell you bb Warfield has some charts
in his book The Plan of Salvation
and they are very convoluted uh and I
think inaccurate uh and so it's not just
an eschatology that you have charts and
so we want to be very careful and I
think they are being a little unfair on
that criticism
Dr Rinker do you have any additional
thoughts in that regard
yes well the apostles themselves were
known to be uneducated by the normal
conventions of the day acts 4 13. and uh
Jesus himself was a rather
unconventional Rabbi so we
don't worry about the
specific education of a person but
rather does their
understanding of scripture does is it
hermeneutically credible does it have
hermeneutical warrant according to the
text and that's really the issue not a
person's pedigree at a deeper level this
is one of the things that one of the
elements of that podcast that really
troubled me
again if if this were a just a simple
attempt I mean a legitimate attempt to
measure the merits of dispensationalism
as a way of reading the scriptures these
sort of of issues Darby is a lawyer and
and he was committed to some sort of
dualistic understanding of reality and
Larkin is an engineer organized things
and and Lewisberry Schafer was offended
by what happened to early fundamentalism
and so on there may be some truth to
these observations
but frankly they have nothing to do with
the legitimacy of dispensationalism
and it seems to me again that that the
issue here is one of polemical in
Integrity because again this we could
wish was a debate as how as to how the
Bible ought to be read
and political Integrity demands that
each participate participant in such a
debate step into his adversary's
worldview assume his position valid
until it falls of its own weight as it's
measured against the evidences at hand
but what's Happening Here is they are
assuming I mean they have stipulated
that dispensationalism is bogus and and
and and and and
the sort of considerations uh about
about all of these different uh
personality things and whether or not uh
the the American culture was ready it
was looking for this sort of thing
because of the influence of Mormonism
and Christian Science none of that
speaks to the issue of whether or not
the
dispensationalism is a legitimate way to
uh to read the scriptures so it seems to
me that what's at stake here is that
they have stipulated in their own minds
and
in the conversation that dispensational
dispensationalism is bogus absent any
attempt at Fair assessment
and then they spend their time trying to
discover factors which produce either
characterize or produce such a a bogus
set of ideas and uh and it's very much
the substance of of Hummel's book uh the
battle over the end times and how it's
shaped the nation so many of the factors
that they bring up and the charges they
make and they're you know rather
disparaging attitude towards charts what
has that got to do with the legitimacy
of dispensationalism as a way of reading
the scriptures that doesn't seem to be
the real focus of the discussion
that's I think you've got your finger on
the problem right it really is this the
whole book is really uh there can be no
way this is not the right option this is
not the the proper interpretation of
scripture therefore we have to find a
way to explain this incredible cultural
phenomenon that's going on all over the
United States and all around the world
and all these schools and all these
Mission agencies that develop and it
reminds me of like the JDP Theory and
and uh even you know a liberal version
of the synoptic problem is it's you've
got in your mind this is this can't
happen Miracles can't happen therefore I
have to find a a humanistic natural
explanation for this social cultural
phenomenon
well Dr Mohler discusses Clarence
Larkin's charts and seems surprised that
Larkin's charts would go back to
Creation as the beginning of the story
uh please watch and listen with me I was
going to mention the Larkin charts
uh which uh I I at least was exposed to
as a teenager and it was only far later
as a historian that I came to understand
that the British Empire was full of
similar charts
uh including uh the you know putting
Britain's imperial history in the flow
of Western Civilization with the Roman
Empire in the Medieval ages in other
words and so school children uh perhaps
on both sides of the Atlantic but
certainly in Great Britain they were
quite accustomed to seeing these uh
timelines which we're trying to say
here's the great story and and Larkin
goes back and of course goes back to
Creation as the the beginning of the
story well uh Dr Keane you might be like
amen right you've taught a course called
the Grand Narrative of scripture you've
taught this course both at the college
level at ethnos 360 Bible Institute and
at The Graduate level at Dallas
Theological Seminary would you please
share with our listeners a little bit
about what that grand Narrative of
scripture is and why Mueller's surprised
that Larkin's charts go back to Creation
once again puts on display in my
estimation his lack of understanding of
dispensationalism
yeah okay thank you Dr Weaver I just
want to say first of all that I do
appreciate Dr Mohler as a person I think
we all would have things that we would
commend about him I'm a Kentuckian and
uh just to see how he turned things
around at Southern and their voice for
conservativism I appreciate that and his
willingness to take on difficult issues
in the Public Square uh things that
could get you canceled and he's willing
to go there so I really appreciate him
but I do believe that he's wrong about
his understanding of dispensationalists
and dispensationalism and so yeah as far
as your question goes uh Grand native of
scripture this is a course that I teach
others have taught as well and it
follows the plot line of scripture from
Genesis to Revelation and the basic
premise is that Genesis 1 and 2 serve as
this setting for the biblical story it
introduces you to the hero of the story
God and his plans for his creation and
those plans include dude mankind ruling
on the earth as God's delegated rulers
this is a kingdom God wants them to be
fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth
and so what I do in this course is that
I trace literary features within the
books of the Bible that I would say
hyperlink them to earlier texts and show
this developing plot line and this
expectation of this coming Messiah so
you get the seed promises to Abraham
Isaac Jacob Judah and then to David and
of course you come into Matthew and
Jesus is the son of Abraham the son of
David and and so what I see here is that
we're waiting on a king and that King is
going to bring God's Kingdom
and you know as the as the gospel story
unfolds you find that Jesus comes as the
expected Messiah he has the credentials
his miracles validate him but then when
the kingdom is proclaimed and rejected
by the Jews then from that time forward
Matthew 16 21 he began to tell his
disciples that he would suffer Etc and
so it looks like we come back to the
Huddle and now we begin to get
information that things are not going to
look the way we might have thought they
would look the fact that there has to be
instructions inside the Huddle tells me
that Israel was expecting a literal King
and Kingdom when the disciples asked
about this in Acts chapter 1 Jesus
didn't rebuke them saying don't you know
this is all spiritual he didn't correct
them because they were accurate
um but but the timing of that you know
is pushed down the road so anyway we
look at the second Advent of Christ and
you get this Millennial Kingdom on the
earth and then you get the Eternal State
and and the way Genesis 1 and 2 is
mirrored in Revelation 21 and 22. it
ties the whole story together now uh as
far as that goes you know this this
issue uh Dr Mohler made it sound like
Larkin was novel in his concept of
connecting this to Creation I that's not
new at all a dispensationalists have
always done that I mean this is what we
do we're looking at God's Grand program
for the ages if I can uh you know allude
to Talbot there so you know this is this
is common among dispensationalists I
also want to say this is common among
Covenant theologians that their
articulation goes back to their their
storyline would be creation fall and
Redemption now I think this is very
important that we keep it here and
here's the reason why that for the
Covenant Theologian they're going to
argue that God's purpose in history is
the glory of God through the Redemption
of the elect and and these Covenant
framework is how this has played out
but if you think about this it's a focus
on individual salvation and there's not
a focus on the kingdom I thought it was
ironic that Dr Hummel mentioned
greatness of the Kingdom Alvin J McLean
uh that book was probably the most
impactful book that I've ever read but
you know that that changed me forever
because what I saw is that the storyline
doesn't begin in Genesis 3 with the fall
of Man and it doesn't end with the
resurrection of Christ and then the
Redemption of the elect throughout
history but the storyline begins in
Genesis 1 with the kingdom and it
doesn't end until Revelation 21 and 22
and a new heavens and a new Earth okay
but I want to read a quote on this I
think is powerful this is from J.A size
and his work on the apocalypse he says
this he says if Redemption does not go
as far as the consequences of sin it is
a misnomer and fails to be Redemption
the salvation of any number of
individuals is not the Redemption of
what fell but the Gathering up of a few
splinters and in such a case Satan's
Mischief would go further than Christ's
restoration and what he's saying is you
know regardless of the number of people
who come to faith in Christ that handful
of people that's not the Redemption of
what fell and so the storyline isn't
complete until Christ Reigns but not
just rains rains on the earth and and
obviously as I said earlier this is not
uncommon among dispensationalists nor is
it uh exclusive to dispensationalists
Covenant theologians go back to Creation
as well
Dr Bookman you have anything you'd like
to add to that
well let me say first of all I
appreciate all of that and I too stand
on the shoulders uh very very
consciously of uh Dr Ella McLean's his
greatness of the kingdom and I I would
just say this as well that that key to
the whole concept of dispensary or the
dynamic the uh Persona of
dispensationalism is this idea of the
progress of Revelation and uh I I think
anybody would acknowledge that that
that's how God has that's how according
to the Bible God has revealed himself I
like to say that God didn't you know
back the dump truck of Revelation up to
the Garden of Eden you know and just
dump it all there and say okay sort it
out for yourselves uh God is an
infinitely wise teacher he knows that
he's working with almost infinitely slow
students and so kindly and carefully he
has parceled out Revelation and nobody
would deny that that's why he didn't
take a lamb to church last Sunday but
but as you read the scriptures simple
reading the scriptures it's clear
that there are these stages of
Revelation and they move one is
absolutely I like the stair step
approach where where each Revelation
each stage of Revelation is dependent
upon that which went before and and and
the point being that at every stage of
Revelation as recorded in scripture
mankind is responsible as a steward is a
steward of the Revelation that God has
given to that point well guess what the
word dispensation is a dispensation
means it means stewardship that's all
we're saying we're tracing the progress
of Revelation as clearly recorded in
scripture and and we're assuming I think
a prop a matter of fact we're insisting
that the progress of Revelation is
always from truth to Greater truth it's
never from from certainly from error to
truth or even from deliberate
misrepresentation to finally telling the
truth it's from truth to Greater truth
and that's why wherever you are in the
Bible
God expects you to bring with you
everything he already said so you have
this progress this careful deliberate
blessed progress of Revelation and uh
and you simply Trace that in just as Dr
King pointed out it it produces this
Grand narrative that is it coherent and
and uh just just blessed Beyond uh uh
our capacity to really appreciate and
does in fact focus on God's glory the
way he will put himself on display in
the course of human history by
fulfilling his Covenant promises and by
accomplishing that which clearly is his
design and history that uh he would
Reign through the Messiah for a thousand
years and then as the the the uh new
heaven descends and so on I'm sorry as
the New Jerusalem descends God will once
again Reign Over the Earth physically on
this Earth so that grand narrative
unfolds so beautifully as you simply
follow the scriptures uh and and so
would you go back to Genesis to begin
well that's rather what the word means
so it seems to me to make good sense to
start there
very good and you just to reiterate what
you just said we don't knew Revelation
doesn't change or
um forsake or or correct old Revelation
that we do believe as traditional
dispensationalists or whatever term
you're using Mueller and uh Hummel are
using the term classical but I think
they don't fully understand how they're
using it either but nonetheless we
believe that the progress of Revelation
is so key to understanding future
interpretation does future Revelation
doesn't change
uh former Revelation it builds upon it
well I would like to show another
interaction between Dr Hummel and Dr
Muller notice that after Hummel points
out that the charts were intended to
help simplify things Dr Mueller inserts
another statement that mocks
dispensationalists and he does so with a
unfortunately a big smirk I don't know
how else to interpret it but he was
proud of his comment as the British
would say his cheeky comment so observe
with me please
uh by the way just I'll say on on the
charts those charts which to many
outsiders look very complicated are
actually meant to simplify things the
pictorial representation is meant to
simplify so it's the periodic table of
elements that's right and I remember
there's one a Brethren who who uh you
know was doing these charts and he had a
very simple chart but it required a 200
Page uh accompanied annotation you
understand the chart so uh not not so
simple I guess all right would anybody
like to comment on the periodical chart
comment or the 200 Page and uh
accompanied annotations
again I understand that
we should expect a complexity that's
coherent in the
diversity and richness of all that God
is doing and all that has revealed over
1400 years of Revelation and in
scripturation so
um it's not surprising at all that
perhaps there would be 200 pages of
annotation for the scriptures are much
larger than that
it wasn't in Jesus
said to the disciples on the road to
Emmaus oh foolish and slow of heart to
believe all that the prophets
said and then you know beginning with
Moses and all the prophets he shared
with them those things in scripture
concerning himself so
uh these disciples believed some we
might say they believed or expected
Isaiah 52 your King has come but they
struggled with Isaiah 53
your king is going to be crucified on a
Roman cross as the Lamb of God so they
believed some Isaiah 52 they didn't
believe all they didn't read well Isaiah
53 and we today have exactly the
opposite problem when we hear the word
gospel we think Jesus died for your sins
on a Roman cross we're believing that
but where some at least are not
believing all they're not believing the
part of corporate salvation for ethnic
Israel as promised in Hebrew scriptures
so it's very fascinating that um
Jesus can say that to them rebuking them
for not a complete understanding of the
Bible storyline I think he'd say the
same to us to same to many evangelicals
today you're not believing all
you understand personal salvation
through a savior who died for your sins
but you're not expecting corporate
salvation according to the promises of
scripture very good that's very helpful
thank you I you know when we think of
all of human history really that's what
dispensationalism is doing and covenant
theology trying to understand human
history and how to uh what What's found
in the Bible so to have 200 footnotes or
annotations isn't that much if you think
about all of human history and the the
storyline in the grand Narrative of
scripture but I digress I also just did
a quick search
to see okay how are people explaining
their views and how much uh page space
do they take to do this and I noticed
Richard belcher's book published in 2020
uh it's a fulfillment of God's promises
or fulfillment of the promises of God an
explanation of covenant theology
324 pages okay rari's dispensationalism
272 Pages Michael Horton's work on
introducing covenant theology 208 Pages
uh renal showers early is a difference
225 Pages it takes time to explain a
view in detail so someone who's a novice
can begin to understand that and so I
think that uh you know they probably
didn't think about this I don't think
you know that Dr Mohler or Dr Hummel
considered this but really this is the
case of special pleading it's a logical
fallacy where you want to be treated one
way but your opponent's view is treated
a different way it takes time to explain
both use uh and I think it could be
argued that the dispensational view is
actually the easiest one to explain
well listen uh I just got to say and Dr
King made the point is there is a
logical fallacy we have a veritable uh
you know just explosion illogical
fallacies going on here but I have to go
back and say look if you were going to
ask somebody if somebody asked you is
dispensationalism a legitimate way to
read the scriptures and you're replied
by saying well they have charts that
take a lot of pages to explain
how does that even speak to the issue on
the other hand if you if you want to say
well we know this is bogus and what
pretended criticisms can we come up with
special pleading Galore that's that's
what's going on here that's that's
what's so troubling about this
interchange is that there is there is it
there is so little polemical Integrity
in it it seems to me well gentlemen I
want to play this next video clip
without any introduction and then see if
you have any issues that you take with
it watch with me
you know I I'm I'm a a great uh
appreciator or the first Great Awakening
great concerns about the Second Great
Awakening one thing it's effects it's
set loose all these sex and Cults uh you
know uh you know so many of them from
the American Northeast
and everybody had a system whether it
was Mary Baker Eddie uh you know or
Joseph Smith and everybody had a system
and it seems to me that sociologically
the United States at that moment was
kind of ready for an argument that was
pretty classically Christian and
biblicist to say okay you know those
guys are nuts here's the system
yeah that makes a lot of sense to me
does that make sense to you Dr Stalin I
think it's something that's not new it's
uh if you remember Timothy Weber's book
on the road to Armageddon that came out
years ago
says does the same kind of guilt by
association argument
uh and but he'll say he has a chapter
and he puts uh Darby in the middle of
Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and
everybody else and then and then he had
later on he'll say but Darby isn't like
the rest of them
but he's already done the damage by
putting it out there together and so I
think there's a little bit of that in
this and that made me a little concerned
about this part of the of the podcast
you know there are things that are
driving people back to the Bible
and in the in the
you know after the Napoleonic Wars are
over I mean Europe is decimated I don't
think we understand how bad that was
and but one good thing that's now
happening that the wars are over is that
evangelicals in England and evangelicals
on the continent in Europe are beginning
to be able to talk again
and uh they began and there's a
different groups doing different things
it's all over the map in the culture but
they're you know you there are writings
one by a man named the de gaults
g-o-l-t-z that I ran across middle 1800s
he does kind of a survey of different
groups
and what they're about and when he gets
to
Darby and the darbyites
he says they aren't the people who are
into simple Bible readings
they go verse by verse Through the Bible
trying to figure out what it said and
where it's going and they go they're
just simple Bible readers
and I found it interesting this is a man
outside the camp
in Europe
talking about them in the middle of the
1800s and uh what drove them back well
the world's falling apart has fallen
apart so people are looking for things
and the darbyites were looking for it in
scripture and they were taking it line
by line precept by precept they were
basically following what we want my call
today grammatical historical
interpretation now they had other crusty
things around as everyone is prone to do
but I think that's important so I see
what Darby is in his movement is done
was a rediscovery
of the Jewish perspective of the Bible
and by that I don't mean denial of the
Messiah Jesus I mean a recapture of
primarily the literalness of how they
viewed things like their Kingdom and
kiliasm and all those kind of things so
that you know when we come to Oswald T
Alice in 1945 he complained about
dispensation she says we're the people
that we're extremists because we take
the word Israel to mean Israel
and you know that Darby and his group
they were taking the words at face value
and what drove them to that was the
falling apart of the world and the
Napoleonic Wars and so I I think uh they
were people back to the Bible movement
it wasn't super clear to me and in both
of these previous clips that that we
looked at
um what exactly Dr Muller and Dr Hummel
were doing with these observations
uh they're talking about the
socio-political economic situations that
obtain wind dispensationalism begins to
take form as a theology as a theological
system
and if all they're doing is being
descriptive and saying these were the
socio-political factors at the time that
perhaps gave shape to how
dispensationalism developed or
influenced how dispensationalism was
formulated then I would have no problem
with that because that's true of every
theological development that has ever
occurred throughout the last 2000 years
we all develop our theology in
particular
socio-cultural milus and that's going to
affect how we shape and how we formulate
our theology
but it almost seems to me at times like
what they're trying to do is point to
these socio-political economic factors
and then use that to explain away the
legitimacy of dispensationalism and if
that's what they're doing then that is
remarkably reductionistic uh oh well you
only have this system because of X Y and
Z external factors and I would just
point out that you could play that game
with any theological system
we could look at Protestant Reformation
theology which I know Dr Muller holds
too it sounds like Dr humble does as
well and you could say okay yeah
Protestant Reformation that's really
just the result of the full flowering of
Renaissance humanism uh applied to
Christian theology at the same time
you've got Roman Catholic uh political
corruption run amok and then put in the
invention of the printing press and you
sort of supercharge this movement and
that's all there is to it
I don't think that would be a fair way
of characterizing the emergence of the
Protestant Reformation and I think those
who are sympathetic to Protestant
reformed theology would say yes those
factors may have contributed to the way
that this theology emerged
but they would likely say that God and
His Providence used those factors to
drive the reformers to X Y and Z correct
theological conclusions that they're
deriving from scripture and I think
that's exactly what the rest of us would
say about dispensationalism it's not
that the Contemporary situation on the
ground and the political situation in
England and America did not contribute
to how this took form it's just that you
can't reduce the emergence of a
theological system to those external
factors well said thank you for that
well let's move on to another actually
I'm not going to show the next clip but
for the sake of time I I want to tell
you about it and have you comment on it
but I will quote Dr Mohler he States
classical dispensationalism and we don't
fully understand he never really defines
what he means by classical
dispensationalism but classical
dispensationalism is today rarely
encountered it's only in a few isolated
pockets
I'm assuming he's talking about
traditional dispensationalism
um using that term or I don't like the
term revised dispensationalism because
that's really what the progressives have
given to us because they're setting us
on a spectrum right they've got the
classical revised so kind of setting the
stage to win the debate but so assuming
that he's speaking of classical
dispensationalism speaking of you all
speaking of me how would you respond to
this statement Dr Keane would you like
to start yeah I'll do that so you know
April and I my wife we've been with uh
ethnos 360 for 20 years now most of you
know ethnos 360 is new tribe's Mission
we recently changed our name uh but new
tribe's Mission ethnos360 uh we are
unashamedly dispensational and uh just
to share some statistics about our
organization because we I feel like
we're very strong we're planting
churches around the world and these
churches are dispensational they may not
know that uh some of them but that's
that's what they are so you know we have
what we call ethnos 360 Global Partners
and this goes back several years ago
when you know new tribes mission was
based out of the United States and then
we had several sending countries that
were also sending missionaries and we
realized you know we need to we need to
globalize here and so we have this
Global Ministry agreement that holds
together our Global Partners so might be
a different name of the mission in
different countries but we're the same
organization we have 22 different
sending entities countries that send out
missionaries I'll name a few but just a
few USA Germany United Kingdom
Philippines Mexico Brazil Bolivia Faroe
Islands Italy and of course the European
countries many would expect that they
would be Covenant theologians but in
fact we've had you know we have some
strong pockets of dispensationalists
from those countries
and uh we're working in a total of 348
people groups right now so those are
just let me interrupt those are sending
countries right absolutely receiving
countries but they're sending out
dispensational missionaries yes and and
out of those countries we have training
centers in 12 countries with about 700
students right now in our training
programs worldwide these people are
being trained to plant churches with
ethnosis 360. and let me just read this
to you this is one of our doctrinal
points quote the church beginning at
Pentecost is the body of Christ
comprised of those who have trusted
Jesus Christ as Savior and then there's
an explanation below that that says for
example that the church is the body of
Christ not a reprie not a replacement of
Israel
Etc so you know for someone to be a
member with ethnos360 these people that
were training and sending out they are
agreeing to this and they're agreeing to
it willingly because this is the
position that they hold so at least
among ethno's 360 dispensationalism is
alive and well
Dr altizer you're also involved with
ntcgs the national theological college
and graduate school tell us a little bit
about its impact
sure Paul wig train in the Middle East
and we have over 600 graduates actually
400 graduates 200 enrolled now in the
current program in closed countries in
the Middle East and many times they tell
us you know that's the home of allegory
and covenant theology and they tell us
we are the trash can for the whole world
everybody brings their bad theology here
so when we first went in the country
with I'm not going to say a
dispensational hermeneutic but teaching
the students literal interpretation
which resulted in a dispensational
approach they said we want this and
instead of fighting us and rejecting us
they ended up having to Grapple with
God's word as it's written what it means
how they put that together and as a
result they have planted churches
throughout the Middle East in closed
countries where we can't get to and most
I'm not going to say all but most are
unashamedly dispensational some have
planted count countless charges we
stopped trying to count them
but to say that it's you know sparse or
not prevalent it's not growing I think
that's a very limited view on actually
what's going on if you compare to maybe
Seminary size in America perhaps
dispensationalism is not as large as
reformed or covenant theology but it's
still at work and it's still
communicating to people and they still
believe it because God's word is
understandable and it means what it says
so we're we're thankful for that
it's very good and I have the privilege
of being a faculty member with ntcgs and
so thankful to have that privilege to be
training people that would be the most
predisposed not to be dispensationalists
right those who politically don't like
Israel as a nation as their people group
not them as individuals but their people
group and so it's very interesting that
they have to get Beyond those very
strong political uh pressures and as
they read the text they've come to these
conclusions this book is a little bit
North America focused right
um we could talk about the impact around
the world you know as you know I was the
academic dean of the word of Life Global
Bible Institute and Word of Life is in
80 plus countries and has 16 Bible
institutes 10 of them are accredited and
so they're producing a lot of alumni
that know the and are studying the Bible
and using the historical grammatical
literal method in coming to these same
conclusions so it is well beyond just a
few isolated people in the United by the
way I'd also add wherever I go and teach
I just got back from Argentina the
Brethren churches are almost always the
strongest churches too because they're
so committed to every one of them
studying the Bible and and the men being
able to stand up and teach the Bible so
uh in in Hungary is the Brethren
churches that helped us start the Bible
there because they had a real strong
commitment commitment to
understanding historical grammatical
literal and preparing individually to
teach Dr cevallu Southern Baptist Church
member you were at Southwestern Baptist
Theological Seminary how was your
reception there as a traditional
dispensationalist yes although I
currently teach at Dallas Theological
Seminary my first full-time teaching
position with was with Southwestern
Baptist Theological Seminary
um
when I uh and and people have called
Southwestern a former president called
it the Crown Jewel of the Southern
Baptist seminaries
I won't be the one to determine whether
that's accurate or not but what you
can't say is that Southwestern is
marginal right it is it is one of the
six major Southern Baptist seminaries
and when I joined the faculty there the
president I think would probably be
identified as a classic
dispensationalist because the Provost uh
Craig blazing he disagreed with him
and so I I don't know where else he's
going to go other than maybe classical
or traditional
uh now when I was at Southwestern I
primarily served down at the Houston
campus
at the Houston campus
my Dean would probably be fall into the
classical or traditional or well blazing
a buck we'll call revised
dispensationalists
um
and uh probably
you know a third the half of the faculty
in Houston would be considered
dispensational
um you know one of the things that I
really as I was thinking about this
question is that
when I served it was never a shiblet or
a litmus test and I'm classical or
Progressive or even I was if I was a
dispensationalist
um I was able to sign with Integrity the
Baptist faith and message 2000 as a
dispensationalist
and you know my scholarship as far as I
know uh was never really called into
question because of my dispensationalism
I just did the work
uh of what it meant to uh you know teach
it to teach at the school and so
um I didn't sense any kind of hostility
I didn't I didn't feel that I was uh
viewed as a unicorn or something like
that
you know uh it was just um I was uh
serving with these other uh men and
women at the institution and so I I
can't say I had a negative thing and I
just certainly didn't feel like I was a
rare or a rarity or an isolated pocket
but uh that's simply my experience
that's very interesting I uh this is the
anecdotal story but I did talk you know
it's from the mouth of ryrie himself so
I was interviewing Dr ryrie for uh
research paper that I was involved in Dr
stallard's class for and he was kind
enough to take a couple interviews with
me and and he was sharing about how Dr
Paige Patterson was uh introducing him
at the Seminary and uh and he introduced
Dr ryrie and he said this book held up
dispensationalism the book and this is
Charles Riley telling me this and he
held up the book and said uh this he's
the author of dispensationalism and he
looked over at uh blazing and said you
should probably read this one
and so
um I think that would affirm what you're
saying that he probably was a
traditional dispensationalist
in this next video clip that I want to
show and then have you discuss Dr Hummel
indicates that those who are what he
calls classical dispensationalists which
Dr Mohler and Dr Hummel seem to be
referring to everyone who is not what we
call Progressive dispensationalists that
these individuals are few and far
between and in their 60s and 70s other
interviews Dr Hummel says they are above
65. would you listen with me and comment
afterwards
um the the in terms of the classical
um no there aren't many uh left there is
a book that just came out
um this uh last week called discovering
dispensationalism which cobbles together
about a dozen Scholars who hold to uh
largely a classical that there are some
progressives in that mix
um and and you know the places that
really teach us are places like Southern
California Seminary very small Seminary
um uh Shepherds College very small uh
very small College they're pretty
vibrant in their own way but they're
very small and you could probably put
all of them in a room and it wouldn't
equal you know a one large Seminary
um but uh but otherwise the the
classical tradition of dispensationalism
is is on really tough ground
um I would guess uh that that if you
went to some seminaries and you found
them uh they would be in their 60s or
70s at this point there's not there's
not people in their 30s and 40s who are
sort of being trained in this system the
video clip that I just showed you Dr
homos just manifestly wrong this very
panel shows all but two of us are under
the age of 65 and on this panel we have
professors from more than 12 different
theological colleges universities and
seminaries at Dallas Theological
Seminary alone I know of at least seven
other colleagues well under the age of
65 who are traditional
dispensationalists of the ryrie wolvard
Pentecost and McLean variety
so to make such a statement on multiple
interviews is in my opinion just sloppy
guesswork and not research furthermore I
would add that schools and Ministries
represented by this panel also have many
young scholars who are traditional
dispensationalists in other interviews
Hummel suggests that in 20 years maybe
none will exist but the facts just don't
bear out his claims but we must remember
that one of Hummel's premises as
articulated in various interviews is
that theological beliefs which are
accurate that reflect the Bible will
endure Through the Ages
a second premise he holds is that
dispensationalism is in general and
traditional dispensationalism in
particular is not accurate and therefore
he concludes we should expect it not to
be taught and to lose its influence and
so he tries to collect and put forth
evidence and in this case that just
doesn't bear out evidence to support his
thesis one thing that's a great
encouragement to me
is all of you guys
yeah I am the old geezer on the group so
I look and I see a rather robust group
of guys that are younger and I'm greatly
encouraged by that uh that's encouraging
to those of us who are on the you know
starting to step into the golden years
earlier in the conversation Dr Muller
asked a very interesting question that
is related to our discussion it's about
those Scholars who are defending
inerrancy he refers to them as
fundamentalists and our listeners should
know that that term fundamentalist was a
very positive term at the time in all
segments of evangelicalism it involved
those conservative evangelicals who were
defending the fundamentals of the faith
against the theological liberals denying
the fundamentals of the faith join me
and listen with me another interesting
thing Dr Hummel uh C Alan Russell wrote
a book I don't know a generation ago on
portraits of American fundamentalism and
and with the exception of matron they
were all dispensational
yeah there were I think seven of them
five of them were graduates of the
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
and and and there was no
dispensationalism taught
uh in their theological education
um so that raises a huge question how
did how did these Urban pastors you
mentioned William Bell Riley uh JC
Massey so many others how did these
Urban pastors get this I'm very
intrigued by Mueller's question because
as he indicated six of the seven of
these individuals highlighted
only one with the exception of Machin
were dispensationalists Mueller asks the
question how is it that men taught at
Southern Seminary a seminary that didn't
teach dispensationalism at all how did
they come to dispensational beliefs
without being taught it in our theology
courses
would anyone like to answer that
question again I think it does go back
to what we talked about earlier the
Simplicity and straightforwardness of
the dispensational approach to scripture
um and and it is interesting that
Hummel's argument is that we've lost
market share in the Evangelical Academy
but he also says that Grassroots
dispensationalism is flourishing the
churches they're still there the pastors
are still there and I think that's a
testimony to the fact I mean we can talk
all day about why we're losing markets
here in the academy but the fact that
the churches are still flourishing and
he admits this I think it's a testament
to the fact that the ordinary man the
ordinary church member can look at the
dispensational model and say you know
that makes a lot of sense that's what
the Bible says I don't really have to do
any hermeneutical gymnastics to get
there and so I I I I I think that
explains why people are coming out and
being dispensational
you know the dispensationalism has
always been
more of a movement in the churches than
in the academy it's always been that way
in the modern since Darby on it's been a
church-based movement
and I think that has bothered some of
the other guys because they're Academy
first and they're thinking uh you know
good Academy trained ministers and then
out into the churches uh but you know
Scofield bible pass bypass the academy
dismissalism has primarily spread as a
church movement and I think we need to
make sure that we don't uh disparage
that side of it
probably probably the power of the local
church still Paul they were they were in
seminary but they were still in church
and I think that's where they were being
impacted
uh
by preaching and
studying to preach right there you go
you have to Grapple with all that
as you're in the study to get ready to
stand up in the Pulpit you know
all right before we end this podcast I
do want to share a couple Clips where
Mueller does say a few kind statements
about dispensationalism so watch these
with me and we'll discuss them
I I if I may well stipulate a couple of
things here number one
um classical dispensationalists are
theologically conservative
uh classical dispensationalists are
biblicists in the and I mean that not as
a criticism they're deeply committed to
the scripture and to what they see is
the right reading of scripture
and uh and and they are Ardent in terms
uh of their commitment as Bible students
they're very serious students of the
Bible
and and so at several points in my life
a wonderful classical dispensationalists
have had a big spiritual influence on my
life and I'm I'm very thankful for that
well I do appreciate this nod from Dr
Mohler and and I I see it even more from
from Dr hommel
um it's true that the yes the southern
baptist can a conservative resurgent was
one on the backs of a lot of
dispensationalists and and he knows it
and I appreciate the fact that he
recognizes that I I wish it would
translate into something a little bit
less scornful
um along the way but but I I do
appreciate the naught he gives yeah I
appreciate it too and his understanding
and his use of the word biblicist
uh was important to me uh and I've told
this story before I once had John wolver
when I was pastoring in Arlington Texas
while I was a student at Dallas seminary
in the PHD program
uh I had Dr walver come out to speak at
my church on a Sunday morning
and I took him to a a steakhouse
afterwards for lunch uh him and his wife
and my wife and me and we and while we
were eating I asked him this question Dr
wolvard what's the
greatest issue facing dispensationalism
today
he looked at me and he kind of shook his
head a little bit and says young man
it's what it's always been
the inerrancy of the Bible
and then I got a little lecture from him
on how dispensationalism is the best
approach
to the Bible to express and defend
the truth of the Bible
and I'll never forget that encounter I
had with Dr Walbert and so bibliology is
high it's not just about eschatology
it's our approach to the Bible our
hermeneutics and our belief that the
Bible is from God we really press that
and take it at face value and of course
that biblical statement in Chicago the
statement inarrancy there were many
dispensationalists that were involved in
that and had a big hand in that were
very instrumental you know I would add
it it presents a real interesting
cautionary tale an interview it's kind
of an echo chamber
sympathetic viewpoints and it's really
easy for us to get into the same kind of
boat talking to our own sympathetic
audiences uh and and it's a reminder of
how
we need to be really careful and
cautious in in how we discuss our
brothers in Christ and I really
appreciate this comment uh that that
reminds their listeners that uh we are
seeking to be biblicists and I think if
we were having a dialogue and we started
with that ground we could have some
fantastic conversations well then
there's also another clip Miller this is
a additional kind words let's watch that
clip you know the the most famous
graduate of this institution I think in
the 20th century was W.A Criswell of the
First Baptist Church of Dallas who
became a very dear friend
and it was an Ardent classical
dispensationalist well I deeply
appreciated your book and uh I I also
want to point out that
um the conservative Resurgence in the
Southern Baptist convention was really
only made possible by large Church
pastors almost all of whom were
dispensationalists and much of their
credibility uh for conviction much of
the platform that they had built and
that includes Dr Criswell was based upon
an Unapologetic uh classical
dispensationalism
so I want to say uh that I have a great
deal of respect
uh for so many of those preachers so
many of those pastors so many of those
Bible teachers who so fervently believed
in the scripture and and who defended
the truth of scripture so
comprehensively
Dr Savelle would you like to comment on
that as a beneficiary of the
conservative Resurgence at Southwestern
yeah I mean I appreciate the sentiment I
think like it was said previously
you know is there something to be said
for the fact that by and large
dispensational institutions weren't
eaten worked in need of a resurgence
it was the southern baptist seminaries
that were really struggling
and is there you know something uh there
as well and I'm very thankful for the uh
conservative Resurgence I went to
Criswell College
which uh was founded by Chris well
basically
on the foundation of inerrancy so that's
why I chose the school so I I very much
believe that I was uh
uh really really my first inkling
towards Ministry was after reading a
book called The Battle for the Bible by
Harold lindsell
where he sounds his cautionary tale
including the Southern Baptist
convention and its Seminary so I think
he's right
uh if anything I said I would uh would
have wished he would have made that
comment early rather than late but I
think he is right and I appreciate it
so some of those pastors W.A Criswell
Adrian Rogers and Charles Stanley those
are three of the the names that most
people are familiar with they were uh
traditional dispensationalists and well
one last question as we bring this
conversation to a close Dr Hummel argues
that there are not many scholarly Works
being produced by dispensationalists and
even less by traditional
dispensationalists any comments on that
and I think there is an element of Truth
for sure in the charge that
dispensationalists could stand to
receive greater attention in the
scholarly academic publishing world
there's no question that that's true
that is probably one of the takeaways
that that we can get from this kind of a
conversation that dispensationalists
should probably be more involved than we
have been in those venues uh that being
said it's not as though nobody is out
there writing scholarly works from a
dispensational perspective uh
traditional dispensationalists are still
published routinely in in bibsack uh
that's biblical Sakura the uh the
publication of Dallas Theological
Seminary Master Seminary Journal is is
putting out material uh here at Baptist
Bible Seminary we publish the Journal of
ministry and theology everything we
publish there is from a uh a traditional
dispensational perspective now there are
other academic journals as well that are
circulating that I'm sure some of uh
some of you other gentlemen could
address but then there's a lot of
popular level materials still being
churned out and one of the things that
that Hummel and Mueller sort of did in
their discussion of the publishing world
and Evangelical or excuse me and
dispensationalism's involvement in it
was they sort of characterized popular
level dispensational Publications as
very fringy very sensationalistic very
given over to the date Setters and
things of that nature
which is certainly true in places of
course that same charge could be leveled
against certain non-dispensationalist
groups as well uh but there is a
mountain of material constantly coming
out at the popular level written by
dispensational writers that is not
anything close to sensationalism
newspaper exegesis date setting Etc
I worked for Regular Baptist Press for
eight years we were constantly putting
out books Bible studies uh Church
educational resources a bi-monthly
magazine uh it's not that everything we
wrote was specifically on
dispensationalism per se but everything
that we published was from an
unapologetically traditional
dispensationalist perspective and that
material is used by thousands and
thousands of churches all across America
and around the world I could point to
people like Mark Hitchcock who is
constantly publishing books these days
Ron Rhodes other very high Caliber men
that are popularizing Bible teaching
from a traditional dispensational
perspective
and they are being published and and I'm
I'm grateful for that I think it's easy
to kind of pick out a few of the
nuttiest crack pots from a particular
movement and try to sort of characterize
the entire movement that way
uh but that's not really fair and every
movement has their their sort of extreme
uh you know Kooks and and sort of fringy
characters uh dispensationalist
dispensationalism is no exception to
that but uh I think we're still putting
out a lot of decent quality material and
uh that didn't seem to go acknowledged
in the interview Dr Cohn you're uh you
started a few publishing houses a few uh
Journal uh journals as well would you
like to add to that
yeah I I appreciate that what David is
saying there you know about 20 years ago
and it corresponds a little bit with the
timing that Mark was talking about uh it
became very difficult for
dispensationalists to get published
um and it would be great to do a
follow-up a discussion of that I'd love
to have that discussion with you and
Mark and others but just to very quickly
mention out of that market change there
are a few specific factors I think very
very direct factors but out of that that
market change Rose not just for
dispensational thinkers but uh
democratization of ideas uh publishing
Distributing
marketing became available really in a
way uh that that had never happened
before and so now you've got alongside
some of the more stodgy mainstream
venues that are that are Echo Chambers
you've got some new publishing houses
again within the last 20 years I can
think of 10 I could probably name 10
right now that are putting out
outstanding solid Biblical uh work and
many of the the folks involved in this
in this session today are involved in
writing for those entities whether it's
journals or or uh
monographs and Publications
just the fact that you're doing this
podcast you're you're one of a growing
number
and if if we want to be fair there's a
tremendous amount of high quality
scholarly material coming from
dispensational thinkers across uh
publication lines with various
publishing houses it's just not with the
mainstream Publishers because the
mainstream Publishers and there are a
few that again they're coming from a
tradition that just is not compatible so
there's a lot of reasons as to why but
personally I'm very excited about uh the
the the youth movement and the the older
wisdom that's alongside we've got a lot
of great thinkers people rooted in the
church who are doing wonderful things in
in publishing and writing as means of
teaching the Next Generation gentlemen
thank you for taking the time out of
your very busy schedules especially this
time of the year to record this episode
I would like to end this podcast as I
began it expressing how personally
thankful I am to Dr Mohler for a strong
stance on the inerrancy of scripture I'm
personally thankful for its huge and
virtually single-handed part in the
conservative reshaping of Southern
Seminary and I'm thankful for his
willingness to take biblical stances on
cultural issues in the world today that
are not at all popular
that is why this interview is so
disheartening to me and to many on this
panel
I'd like to summarize and highlight some
of the areas that I believe Dr Hummel
and Dr Mueller were wrong
first dispensational schools are not
small and weaning in influence Dallas
Theological Seminary a dispensational
school is the largest non-denominational
seminary in the United States
Liberty University is the largest
seminary in the United States and it too
is dispensational statement of faith
they both hold to a future for ethnic
National Israel
both teach a pre-tribulational Rapture
and believe that there is a future
seven-year tribulation period on Earth
both schools hold to a pre-millennial
return of Christ both schools believe in
a literal 1 000 year reign of Christ and
a belief in the futuristic understanding
of the Book of Revelation
additionally there are many mid-size and
smaller dispensational schools who are
having a much larger impact in churches
colleges universities and seminaries in
the United States and around the world
than we can measure
just three examples were mentioned
second traditional dispensationalist
Scholars are not virtually all over the
age of 65. that's just manifestly false
this very panel shows that this is not
the case and I have about seven other
colleagues well under the age of 65 who
are dispensational traditional
dispensationalists several are younger
than me I'm only 46. the schools and
Ministries represented by this panel
also have many young scholars who are
dispensational in general and
traditional dispensationalists in
particular
third dispensational thought is not new
this old argument has been rebutted
often and decisively most recently in
the book edited by Dr Corey Marsh and Dr
James Fazio entitled discovering
dispensationalism subtitled tracing the
development of dispensational thought
from the first to the 21st century I
encourage our listeners to go back and
listen to episodes number 76 number 77
and number 78 on the history of
dispensational thought
fourth dispensationalism is not suspect
because it is the product of creative
minds of Engineers and lawyers rather
than trained theologians and exegetes
this was emphasized by Dr Hummel and Dr
Mohler while not once discussing a
single biblical passage we who are on
this round table are not married to any
system we are not married to any person
neither Darby chafer ryrie nor Calvin
Hodge or burkhoff having studied the
scriptures we believe that a proper
understanding of the grand Narrative of
scripture leads us to be dispensational
Fifth and finally there are scholarly
Works being written by
dispensationalists today and Lord
willing will continue to be written for
years to come we have listed and
discussed just a small sampling of the
theological journals Publishers and
books that are written and edited by
dispensationalists
in my opinion we have responded to the
historical inaccuracies and logical
fallacies that Dr Hummel and Dr Muller
articulated in their thinking in public
episode
dispensationalism cannot simply be
explained away as just a cultural
phenomenon traced back to one
influential man John Nelson Darby rather
dispensationalism is the best
explanation of the grand Narrative of
scripture the best explanation of the
human history recorded in the Bible and
it flows out of the best set of
hermeneutical principles of Bible
interpretation
Dr Hummel has stated in multiple
interviews and in his own book that he
was raised in a dispensational home but
no longer holds those teachings because
of the influence of into right and
others Dr humble is not an unbiased
spectator with no dog in this fight in
this interview and in his book Dr Hummel
Cherry picks items that fit his
narrative and glosses over things that
do not
I find some great irony in Dr humble's
work he's critical of sensationalism of
some forms of dispensationalism yet his
book has a very Sensational title and
Sensational chapter headings why to sell
copies he admits this in other
interviews the second to last chapter in
his book is entitled collapse
dispensationalism has not collapsed it's
still here and not just in the popular
culture but by Leading Scholars and the
scope of influence is not limited to
North America but around the world
Hummel's chapter title of collapse makes
me think of the popular rendition of
Mark Twain's response to his reported
death the reports of my death are
greatly exaggerated
I also find it ironic that Dr Hummel
describes the popularizers of modern
dispensationalism as engineers and
lawyers rather than trained theologians
but he himself a historian by training
is in my opinion doing the work of a
theologian not a neutral historiographer
again in my opinion his book is a
theological polemic not an unbiased
History Dr Hummel presented a particular
narrative he wanted to argue not a
history to tell
it's not shocking that this book was
published by erdman's it's not shocking
that it will be read by many it's not
shocking that it will become more
talking points for
anti-dispensationalists who will never
give an objective ear to the arguments
of dispensationalists
but what is disheartening is that Dr
Mohler would allow this book to receive
so much positive attention on his widely
listened to thinking and public program
and in the process of discussing it
would join Dr Hummel in misrepresenting
and at times mocking the positions of
dispensationalists and that is my take
me thinking in public
well that brings today's Bible and
theology matters podcast to a close to
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