0 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:06,600 but to take God at his word 1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,940 all these triumphant I am I am the 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,800 warrior God who has conquered all things 3 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:12,719 and they all belong to me not not in the 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,519 future but now I'm getting all excited 5 00:00:12,719 --> 00:00:16,619 here man there you all right welcome 6 00:00:14,519 --> 00:00:18,900 back to eschatology matters I'm Josh 7 00:00:16,619 --> 00:00:22,080 Howard and today I'm joined uh by Dr 8 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:23,580 Daniel Hummel from uh UW Madison So 9 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:25,980 Daniel thank you so much for joining us 10 00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:27,779 and welcome to eschatology matters 11 00:00:25,980 --> 00:00:29,340 pleasure to be here 12 00:00:27,779 --> 00:00:31,260 um so Daniel you've got a book coming 13 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:32,759 out and I want to get right down to it 14 00:00:31,260 --> 00:00:34,260 um without a whole lot of chit chat or 15 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:35,820 introductory matter because it's I'm 16 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:37,620 really interested in this and and the 17 00:00:35,820 --> 00:00:39,660 title of the book Alone 18 00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:41,160 um I I I'll let you say whether you came 19 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:43,320 up with this or this is a joint effort 20 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:45,300 but the title is just so interesting to 21 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,040 me title of the book coming out in May 22 00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:49,260 is the rise and fall of 23 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,180 dispensationalism and then subtitle how 24 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:54,780 the Evangelical battle over the end 25 00:00:51,180 --> 00:00:56,460 times shaped a nation which that title I 26 00:00:54,780 --> 00:00:58,020 just just wonderful because it's so 27 00:00:56,460 --> 00:00:59,340 interesting to me but but tell me a 28 00:00:58,020 --> 00:01:01,079 little bit about how did this how did 29 00:00:59,340 --> 00:01:02,820 this topic come up and and what was it 30 00:01:01,079 --> 00:01:04,260 about this topic that engaged you how 31 00:01:02,820 --> 00:01:05,280 did this come about how did this project 32 00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:07,080 start 33 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,600 um for you and and where are you writing 34 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:12,360 from there um in Madison 35 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,520 yeah um well good to be with you Josh uh 36 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,560 to answer the last one first I am 37 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,320 working at a Christian study center at 38 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,700 the UWE Madison it's called Upper House 39 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,100 um you can go on our website and see 40 00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:25,680 sort of our uh what we're all about uh 41 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:27,240 we're also part of a a larger Consortium 42 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,040 of Christian study centers there's about 43 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,439 40 of us and we're all across the 44 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,900 country at different usually large 45 00:01:31,439 --> 00:01:36,180 public or you know ivy league type 46 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:39,119 universities just trying to be 47 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:41,100 um salt and light on on those campuses 48 00:01:39,119 --> 00:01:42,900 um so that's where uh that's where I'm 49 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:45,720 writing from right now and most of the 50 00:01:42,900 --> 00:01:46,979 book I wrote when I was working here 51 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,380 um I can't take full credit for the 52 00:01:46,979 --> 00:01:50,880 title I had parts of the title uh the 53 00:01:49,380 --> 00:01:52,799 rise and fall part I knew that from the 54 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:55,740 beginning the subtitle was me working 55 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:58,740 with erdman's my publisher 56 00:01:55,740 --> 00:02:01,799 um there's a lot of the the sort of how 57 00:01:58,740 --> 00:02:03,840 the blank made something happen in large 58 00:02:01,799 --> 00:02:06,119 scale in the U.S is a very popular 59 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,860 subtitle right now so I we sort of 60 00:02:06,119 --> 00:02:09,959 worked with that template 61 00:02:07,860 --> 00:02:11,520 um as we talk I quibble a little with 62 00:02:09,959 --> 00:02:14,040 parts of the subtitle because I'm a 63 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,360 pretty precise person and so I I don't 64 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,680 want to overstate anything in the book 65 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,379 but 66 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,360 um but yeah the book is uh 67 00:02:19,379 --> 00:02:23,879 um a history of dispensationalism which 68 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,560 I think most your viewers listeners uh 69 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:27,480 will get a general sense of what that is 70 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,700 but I'm a historian by training I got my 71 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,020 PhD in religious and intellectual 72 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:32,940 history and so I'm coming at 73 00:02:31,020 --> 00:02:35,400 dispensationalism 74 00:02:32,940 --> 00:02:37,500 less from a theological 75 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,060 um or theologian's perspective less 76 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:39,900 trying to evaluate whether it's true or 77 00:02:39,060 --> 00:02:42,180 not 78 00:02:39,900 --> 00:02:43,860 um though uh I can talk about that if 79 00:02:42,180 --> 00:02:47,940 you want and we're trying to understand 80 00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:51,000 how it emerged as an ism as a system of 81 00:02:47,940 --> 00:02:52,920 beliefs and teachings that ended up 82 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,680 shaping a huge swath of American 83 00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:58,860 Christianity for a very long time for 84 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,560 almost a century I'd say and uh and then 85 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:03,420 also how that system of beliefs has 86 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,280 fallen on hard times when I talked about 87 00:03:03,420 --> 00:03:07,319 the fall of dispensationalism I don't 88 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,360 mean it's disappeared at all there's 89 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:12,239 many dispensationalists 90 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:14,099 um still active and many uh sort of 91 00:03:12,239 --> 00:03:17,099 popular versions that are very active as 92 00:03:14,099 --> 00:03:19,080 well but I do see a decline in its 93 00:03:17,099 --> 00:03:22,200 academic credibility within the 94 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,720 Evangelical fundamentalist world and uh 95 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,300 and the sort of story of major questions 96 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:30,000 and critiques Landing particularly in 97 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:31,680 the second half of the 20th century that 98 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,780 allow me to talk about a fall of this 99 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,659 sensationalism from a more sort of 100 00:03:33,780 --> 00:03:39,480 scholarly approach to one that's really 101 00:03:36,659 --> 00:03:40,860 dominated Now by popular culture and um 102 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,319 and things like the Left Behind series 103 00:03:40,860 --> 00:03:45,060 okay no that's that's super helpful and 104 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:47,340 I'm glad you phrased it that way and so 105 00:03:45,060 --> 00:03:48,720 carefully right so like um because rise 106 00:03:47,340 --> 00:03:50,099 and fall that was one of the things that 107 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,239 just first caught my attention I think 108 00:03:50,099 --> 00:03:52,920 it's going to catch a lot of people's 109 00:03:51,239 --> 00:03:54,599 attention is what does he mean by Rise 110 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,099 but but more importantly probably what 111 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:57,720 does he mean by Fall is he saying this 112 00:03:56,099 --> 00:03:59,879 thing's gone away so we can get into 113 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,620 that a little bit um now I see that you 114 00:03:59,879 --> 00:04:03,420 you've previously written kind of in 115 00:04:01,620 --> 00:04:04,860 this in this General realm I think you 116 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:06,540 had a book called Covenant Brothers is 117 00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:08,700 that correct that's right yeah that was 118 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:10,680 on Evangelical uh Jewish relations or 119 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:12,959 something of that nature yeah that was a 120 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,840 history of Christian Zionism sort of a 121 00:04:12,959 --> 00:04:17,760 similar topic that um intersects with 122 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,320 this sensation but it's different also 123 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,540 and that was uh that was actually my 124 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,960 dissertation here at UW-Madison and I 125 00:04:21,540 --> 00:04:26,639 was in a very archival heavy uh study I 126 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,620 went to Israel I learned Hebrew enough 127 00:04:26,639 --> 00:04:30,360 to be able to read Israeli documents in 128 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:33,780 the in their sort of government archives 129 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,820 to try to understand the origins of how 130 00:04:33,780 --> 00:04:38,100 American and actually anglo-american 131 00:04:35,820 --> 00:04:39,360 evangelicals got really interested in 132 00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:41,460 supporting Israel and then actually 133 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,780 linking up with the government there to 134 00:04:41,460 --> 00:04:44,580 create what we call today the Christian 135 00:04:42,780 --> 00:04:46,020 Zionist movement so dispensationalism is 136 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:47,520 is in the mix there 137 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:49,500 um though it's a much bigger phenomenon 138 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,380 than just dispensationalists doing that 139 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:54,360 type of Christian Zionist uh activism 140 00:04:52,380 --> 00:04:56,100 um so this is a project that actually 141 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,440 came out of some of the thinking I was 142 00:04:56,100 --> 00:05:00,780 doing during my dissertation on that 143 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,520 project but this one is a little broader 144 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:04,199 and and definitely a bigger sweep of 145 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,020 time starting all the way back with you 146 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:08,699 know John Nelson Darby in the 1830s and 147 00:05:07,020 --> 00:05:11,280 then going all the way up to the present 148 00:05:08,699 --> 00:05:12,960 right so now you mentioned the first 149 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,220 study coming from 150 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,780 um coming you know kind of from your 151 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:17,520 doctoral research and this is you know 152 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:20,280 something that that kind of came from 153 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,080 that is this current work um the rise 154 00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:23,759 and fall of dispensationalism what's the 155 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,100 what's the general audience for this is 156 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:28,199 this more of like a academic historical 157 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:30,000 work is this you know lay level like 158 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:32,520 who's what what could the reader expect 159 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,380 from the store a sort of study 160 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,699 yeah I definitely wrote it with a 161 00:05:34,380 --> 00:05:37,800 broader audience in mind than just 162 00:05:35,699 --> 00:05:40,020 Scholars of dispensationalism or 163 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,460 eschatology or anything like that 164 00:05:40,020 --> 00:05:43,020 um the chat I mean there's really sort 165 00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:45,240 of simple ways that I did that which are 166 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:47,280 shorter chapters pictures other things 167 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,139 to make it just a more interesting book 168 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:52,020 but I was also really trying to think 169 00:05:49,139 --> 00:05:53,699 about terminology about making sure I 170 00:05:52,020 --> 00:05:56,580 mean as as you know when you talk about 171 00:05:53,699 --> 00:05:58,320 eschatology even that word is often uh 172 00:05:56,580 --> 00:06:00,600 something you have to unpack for Lay 173 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,340 readers but there's so many other long 174 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,320 words you know dispensational 175 00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:06,419 pre-millennialism is a seven-syllable 176 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,060 just mouthful 177 00:06:06,419 --> 00:06:10,800 um so uh so I did try to write I don't 178 00:06:09,060 --> 00:06:12,900 have any illusions that this is going to 179 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,520 be um you know something you could just 180 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:15,720 pick up without any background knowledge 181 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,639 on any of this stuff I don't even think 182 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,320 the title would really lend itself to 183 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:21,300 someone who had no idea um what 184 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,280 dispensationalism was but 185 00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:24,720 um but it is intended to have a broader 186 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:26,699 readership I really tried to elevate 187 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,280 some of the characters people from Darby 188 00:06:26,699 --> 00:06:31,440 up to people like Schofield in the early 189 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:33,600 20th century and then maybe some people 190 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,699 that are less well known own outside of 191 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,699 more academic circles people like Lewis 192 00:06:35,699 --> 00:06:41,400 Ferry chafer who founded Dallas Seminary 193 00:06:37,699 --> 00:06:44,160 and others and then I also really tried 194 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,960 to connect the academic scholarly story 195 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,520 which is very interesting and is 196 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,860 actually the part that probably is the 197 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,720 least covered by other Scholars that I 198 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:54,300 write about and connect that to the more 199 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:57,060 popular culture manifestations of of 200 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,440 dispensationalism everything from you 201 00:06:57,060 --> 00:07:00,300 know best sellers in the late 19th 202 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,039 century like Jesus is coming which was 203 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:04,680 one of the first popularizations by a 204 00:07:02,039 --> 00:07:06,539 guy named William Blackstone to how 205 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,600 Lindsay's likely planet Earth in the 206 00:07:06,539 --> 00:07:12,840 1970s to you know the the sort of 207 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:15,539 schlock uh apocalyptic movies in the 208 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,819 1970s To the Left Behind novels and 209 00:07:15,539 --> 00:07:19,020 stuff like that okay and that and that 210 00:07:17,819 --> 00:07:20,039 kind of gets to one of the things that I 211 00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:21,720 was going to ask you and I'm glad you 212 00:07:20,039 --> 00:07:24,360 went that way with it because so you're 213 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,259 talking about a a rather large swath of 214 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,300 what you're including within 215 00:07:25,259 --> 00:07:29,039 dispensationalism I was going to ask you 216 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:30,599 as a follow-up and I still will is is 217 00:07:29,039 --> 00:07:32,160 just what your definition kind of your 218 00:07:30,599 --> 00:07:34,880 working parameters for dispensationalism 219 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,560 is because I know typically within 220 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,060 within any Circle some people will you 221 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,620 know they will they will ascribe that 222 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:42,060 label to themselves and then yet they'll 223 00:07:40,620 --> 00:07:43,139 hear others describing that label to 224 00:07:42,060 --> 00:07:44,400 themselves and they say whoa I'm not 225 00:07:43,139 --> 00:07:45,660 with that guy that's not part of our 226 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,979 group and that sort of thing so like 227 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:48,479 what were your kind of parameters for 228 00:07:46,979 --> 00:07:50,039 including dispensational thought because 229 00:07:48,479 --> 00:07:52,199 you know as you mentioned you have 230 00:07:50,039 --> 00:07:53,580 especially in decades past you had a lot 231 00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:55,020 of guys that were doing a lot of writing 232 00:07:53,580 --> 00:07:57,120 a lot of Articles even that were coming 233 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:59,340 out from dispensational circles but then 234 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,960 you also had a lot of Bargain Bin you 235 00:07:59,340 --> 00:08:03,120 know Christian basement type type 236 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,319 material so speak a little bit about 237 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,539 that for us 238 00:08:04,319 --> 00:08:08,220 yeah and this is a uh I'm gonna be 239 00:08:06,539 --> 00:08:10,259 annoying and be a historian in part of 240 00:08:08,220 --> 00:08:11,940 this which is to say that um part of 241 00:08:10,259 --> 00:08:13,740 this changes over time and I know that 242 00:08:11,940 --> 00:08:15,720 can be very frustrating to people who 243 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:17,940 really see these you know terms like 244 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,580 dispensationalism or covenantalist or or 245 00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:22,860 other related terms as sort of trans 246 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:25,080 historical sort of fixed in a universal 247 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:26,699 categories but as a historian I I mean 248 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,259 one important thing to note is the term 249 00:08:26,699 --> 00:08:30,800 dispensationalism 250 00:08:28,259 --> 00:08:34,680 uh doesn't actually come about until 251 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:36,599 1927. so it's a very late uh term like 252 00:08:34,680 --> 00:08:38,339 if you did the Oxford dictionary 253 00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:41,219 etymology of the term and it actually 254 00:08:38,339 --> 00:08:43,740 comes about by a Critic uh who is trying 255 00:08:41,219 --> 00:08:45,660 to identify a modern heresy that critic 256 00:08:43,740 --> 00:08:47,940 is Philip Morrow a reformed Theologian 257 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:49,980 of the early 20th century and so he is 258 00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:52,140 the originator of the term um and so 259 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:54,540 that to me already as a historian I 260 00:08:52,140 --> 00:08:56,880 think all right so this term is 261 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:59,640 um sort of thrust Upon A group of people 262 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:02,399 and they do end up taking ownership of 263 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,080 it uh famously or probably not famously 264 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:05,760 outside of certain circles uh Lewisberry 265 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:09,300 chafer the founder of Dallas Seminary 266 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:13,200 writes a very long essay in 1936 in his 267 00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:15,240 own uh Journal bibiotheca Sacra 268 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,680 um and he says fine I'm going to be 269 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,200 called a dispensationalist and so that's 270 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:22,380 1936 so when we talk about John Nelson 271 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,760 Darby or Scofield who dies in 1921 these 272 00:09:22,380 --> 00:09:25,800 people would never have responded to the 273 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,060 term dispensationalism and so that is 274 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,700 part of my definition is trying to 275 00:09:27,060 --> 00:09:32,339 understand what is at stake when people 276 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:34,920 call themselves dismissals or not now 277 00:09:32,339 --> 00:09:37,560 beyond that there are sort of uh tried 278 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,600 and true doctrines that I see as sort of 279 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:41,100 inherently dispensationalist the most 280 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,399 important goes all the way back to Darby 281 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:46,800 and it is a uh what I've called a sort 282 00:09:44,399 --> 00:09:48,779 of dualism at the heart of how he reads 283 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,820 the Bible and understands the world and 284 00:09:48,779 --> 00:09:53,640 that dualism is between uh Heaven and 285 00:09:50,820 --> 00:09:56,279 Earth and then sort of the two peoples 286 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,560 of God that uh represent those two which 287 00:09:56,279 --> 00:10:01,519 would be for the Earth the Jewish people 288 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:04,860 or Israel and for heaven uh the church 289 00:10:01,519 --> 00:10:07,680 and that uh it can get confusing because 290 00:10:04,860 --> 00:10:09,660 Darby is not a literalist in way later 291 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:11,399 dismissalists are so he does not derive 292 00:10:09,660 --> 00:10:14,519 that reading from a 293 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:17,519 quote literal hermeneutic of the Bible 294 00:10:14,519 --> 00:10:20,279 he has so that's like an a priori view 295 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:22,500 he's bringing to the text but uh later 296 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:24,180 dispensations pick it up and and read a 297 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:25,920 literalist hermeneutic around it I would 298 00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:28,440 say for dispensationalists after the 299 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,820 1920s that literalist hermeneutic is 300 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,500 very very important to what it means to 301 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:33,540 be a dispensationalist 302 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:36,120 um and and certainly that's that's one 303 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:39,120 of the areas of terrain that that a lot 304 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:42,320 of discussion is over there's also a few 305 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:45,060 other doctrines that are um 306 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:48,839 dispensational or at least are are sort 307 00:10:45,060 --> 00:10:50,279 of uh uh consequences of a 308 00:10:48,839 --> 00:10:52,500 dispensational theology but may not be 309 00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:54,720 about the end times in particular so one 310 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:56,399 of them is around we could call 311 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,660 soteriology 312 00:10:56,399 --> 00:10:59,399 um around what does it mean to be saved 313 00:10:57,660 --> 00:11:01,200 and this comes out later in the 20th 314 00:10:59,399 --> 00:11:03,060 century around sort of the lordship of 315 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,920 Salvation controversy and 316 00:11:03,060 --> 00:11:08,820 dispensationalists tend to have a very 317 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:10,920 uh sort of low view of the barrier to be 318 00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:11,820 saved it's often called the free Grace 319 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,339 tradition 320 00:11:11,820 --> 00:11:16,320 and this isn't explicitly taught by 321 00:11:14,339 --> 00:11:18,120 Darby or Schofield but it actually 322 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,680 Scofield gets there pretty closely but 323 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,480 it's a consequence of the way they see 324 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,880 the Contra the contrast between law and 325 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,680 Grace and and how they sort of see that 326 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,660 salvation needs to be a purely sort of 327 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:29,519 uh Grace oriented act and so even a 328 00:11:27,660 --> 00:11:30,959 mental Ascent that's another thing that 329 00:11:29,519 --> 00:11:34,079 view is called as a mental Ascent 330 00:11:30,959 --> 00:11:36,420 salvation even a mental Ascent to uh the 331 00:11:34,079 --> 00:11:38,160 Lord or to Jesus as your savior can save 332 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:40,440 you this becomes very controversial in 333 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,660 the 80s around John McArthur who sort of 334 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,820 is bridging some of these camps but it's 335 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:46,920 a distinctly dispensationalist view on 336 00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:49,019 salvation uh at least in the in the 337 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,000 American church and then one other area 338 00:11:49,019 --> 00:11:53,339 that um is is important for 339 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,800 dispensationalism is ecclesiology or 340 00:11:53,339 --> 00:11:57,300 what it means to be uh what who is the 341 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,640 church and what what are its boundaries 342 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:00,959 and what is its Mission and 343 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,820 um this is where Darby would be 344 00:12:00,959 --> 00:12:04,980 different from later dispensationalists 345 00:12:02,820 --> 00:12:07,440 so Darby was the founder of the Plymouth 346 00:12:04,980 --> 00:12:09,480 Brethren a group that basically said you 347 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,120 need to dissociate from every existing 348 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,560 denomination and uh and there's should 349 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,079 not be a professional clergy class 350 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:17,820 that's a distinctive of the Brethren and 351 00:12:16,079 --> 00:12:20,279 and he was very frustrated he was 352 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:22,380 spreading his teachings in the US in the 353 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:23,940 1870s and 80s he was frustrated that the 354 00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:27,480 Americans who picked up his eschatology 355 00:12:23,940 --> 00:12:30,660 did not pick up his ecclesiology and so 356 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,279 the most famous popularizer of Darby was 357 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:34,920 a presbyterian Minister named James 358 00:12:32,279 --> 00:12:36,720 Brooks in St Louis Brooks was a lifelong 359 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,579 Presbyterian and never even contemplated 360 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,680 leaving and this was a huge problem for 361 00:12:38,579 --> 00:12:42,959 someone like Darby and if you look on 362 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:43,680 later dispensationalist uh people who 363 00:12:42,959 --> 00:12:45,060 actually call themselves 364 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,579 dispensationalists and constructed the 365 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:49,620 theology their ecclesiology is a lot 366 00:12:47,579 --> 00:12:51,300 different than Darby's they tend to be 367 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:53,180 you know more fundamentalist and and 368 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:55,560 there are definitely like separation 369 00:12:53,180 --> 00:12:57,120 measures of Separation but there's 370 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:59,100 plenty of dispensations who are southern 371 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,040 Baptists who are 372 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:04,079 um certain strands of Presbyterian and 373 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:06,139 others at least historically the 374 00:13:04,079 --> 00:13:08,639 reformed Episcopal church had a lot of 375 00:13:06,139 --> 00:13:10,260 dispensational sense so 376 00:13:08,639 --> 00:13:11,519 um so that's another distinctive and so 377 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:12,899 with each of these as you can tell I'm 378 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:15,300 not coming down on like a precise 379 00:13:12,899 --> 00:13:17,940 definition because it is of debate in 380 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:19,380 the in the historical record of what 381 00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:21,060 actually a true dispensationalist view 382 00:13:19,380 --> 00:13:22,380 on some of these things is I would say 383 00:13:21,060 --> 00:13:25,139 you know some of the end time stuff 384 00:13:22,380 --> 00:13:27,000 everyone agrees on but on a lot of the 385 00:13:25,139 --> 00:13:28,740 the Border stuff that's actually the fun 386 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,360 of the story is understanding how do 387 00:13:28,740 --> 00:13:32,880 certain things become dispensationalists 388 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,279 and others not no that's fascinating 389 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,959 that that no that's really helpful so so 390 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:38,399 let me let me ask another clarifying 391 00:13:36,959 --> 00:13:40,079 question and and essentially what I 392 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:41,760 wanted to ask is and and I'll Define 393 00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:43,680 what I mean but but who are your 394 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,060 conversation partners then when you were 395 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:46,680 working through this material and and 396 00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:48,600 what I mean by that just just so our 397 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,700 viewers understand is um so you're 398 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,560 talking about again you're looking at 399 00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:54,000 this historically right so yours is not 400 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:55,680 primarily and correct me if I'm wrong 401 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,779 here but a theological argument on is 402 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:58,860 this true biblically but more so you 403 00:13:57,779 --> 00:14:00,480 know what does this look like in the 404 00:13:58,860 --> 00:14:03,060 historical record how does this rise and 405 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,320 fall um to take off the title there but 406 00:14:03,060 --> 00:14:05,940 um but then how do you choose 407 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,620 conversation partners and then what 408 00:14:05,940 --> 00:14:08,940 conversation Partners did you find in 409 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:10,500 this material in other words like are 410 00:14:08,940 --> 00:14:12,000 you looking at primary sources from 411 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:14,700 these figures you've just mentioned and 412 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,500 are you looking to lay level material or 413 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,760 popular level rather material like what 414 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:19,920 does that look like 415 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,600 yeah that's a great question and as a 416 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,240 historian my main conversation partners 417 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,920 are other historians so there's been a 418 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,779 lot written on the history of 419 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,180 dispensationalism 420 00:14:27,779 --> 00:14:32,700 um and some of the main you know people 421 00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:34,320 that your uh your audience might know 422 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:36,899 are people like George Marsden or Mark 423 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:39,660 Knoll these are very sort of prominent 424 00:14:36,899 --> 00:14:42,540 historians in the field of American 425 00:14:39,660 --> 00:14:44,579 religious history and um and there's a 426 00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:45,899 lot of other historians in there too 427 00:14:44,579 --> 00:14:47,579 um and and there's a certain 428 00:14:45,899 --> 00:14:50,519 interpretation of what dispensationalism 429 00:14:47,579 --> 00:14:52,680 is how it came about and then sort of 430 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,540 how influential it's been that exists in 431 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,000 that literature and I agree with some of 432 00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:59,279 it disagree with other of it and so I've 433 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,320 if you look at my footnotes and I have a 434 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:03,420 really long bibliography at the end 435 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,940 um a sort of essay I want to I want to 436 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:06,959 sort of narrate what I was reading 437 00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:09,180 um you'll see that most of its 438 00:15:06,959 --> 00:15:11,100 historians uh in that in that vein and 439 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:12,240 so there's I I interact with historians 440 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:13,860 who are 441 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,180 um dispensationalists so there is a 442 00:15:13,860 --> 00:15:16,380 small body of literature written by 443 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:17,519 dispensationalists about their own 444 00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:19,800 history 445 00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:20,940 um and then uh many historians who 446 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,040 aren't but who are trying to understand 447 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:25,980 it on its terms 448 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,720 um I do have my own views so I uh I grew 449 00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:30,180 up in this world in a dispensational 450 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:32,579 household many of my parents many of my 451 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:34,320 family including my parents would I I 452 00:15:32,579 --> 00:15:35,519 don't ask them this regularly but I 453 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,199 think they still Define themselves as 454 00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:40,380 dispensationalists my dad went to Dallas 455 00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:42,540 Seminary I was a missionary kid 456 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:44,459 um so I I know the world and I really 457 00:15:42,540 --> 00:15:46,560 respect a lot of people in that world 458 00:15:44,459 --> 00:15:48,420 and so I this isn't trying to sort of be 459 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,540 a hit piece or anything and I don't 460 00:15:48,420 --> 00:15:53,279 actually ascribe to it myself anymore I 461 00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:55,139 would probably land as a historic 462 00:15:53,279 --> 00:15:57,120 premillennialist at this point 463 00:15:55,139 --> 00:15:58,440 um and even that distinction you 464 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,120 probably you know your audience knows 465 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,980 this that's actually a really important 466 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,959 distinction to most people at a place 467 00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:06,000 like UW or even in other parts of church 468 00:16:03,959 --> 00:16:08,220 it's all sounds like it's very similar 469 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,560 uh together and so understanding those 470 00:16:08,220 --> 00:16:12,720 divisions is actually part of what I was 471 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,459 hoping to do in the book is really show 472 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,680 like what's at stake when people Define 473 00:16:14,459 --> 00:16:21,120 themselves in a certain eschatological 474 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:24,480 category not I do end with um a short my 475 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,800 epilogue talks about a few people that 476 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,760 um I don't know if I'd go all the way 477 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,639 with them but I talk about NT Wright and 478 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,260 um and Richard Middleton who's another 479 00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:36,420 Theologian sort of doing more what they 480 00:16:34,260 --> 00:16:38,639 call biblical eschatology but something 481 00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:40,259 where if if we're talking about sort of 482 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:41,699 one of the major defining features of 483 00:16:40,259 --> 00:16:43,259 dispensationalism is it's understanding 484 00:16:41,699 --> 00:16:45,240 that the kingdom is entirely in the 485 00:16:43,259 --> 00:16:48,060 future right and that so many things 486 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:50,040 flow from that reality 487 00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:51,480 um I land on something where it's an 488 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,820 already not yet the kingdom is here 489 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,980 we're working you know for you know 490 00:16:53,820 --> 00:16:57,720 Kingdom work and I find those 491 00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:58,680 particularly right and Middleton as 492 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,899 helpful 493 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,279 um sort of theologians or I guess writes 494 00:17:00,899 --> 00:17:05,100 a historian 495 00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:07,500 um who are sort of giving 496 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:10,260 saying things I would say too in that 497 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:12,120 space okay I got you no that's that's 498 00:17:10,260 --> 00:17:13,740 super helpful and and if I'm hearing you 499 00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:15,600 correctly then because I know you said 500 00:17:13,740 --> 00:17:16,620 you you'd framed this from a historian's 501 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,000 perspective right like you're not 502 00:17:16,620 --> 00:17:19,020 writing a theological piece and I really 503 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,640 appreciate you saying it's not a 504 00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:22,500 theological hit piece 505 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,120 um because because most of us if we are 506 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,319 not dispensational have friends or 507 00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:26,520 family who are who we wouldn't 508 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,199 necessarily want to place outside 509 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,000 Christian Orthodoxy right so that's 510 00:17:28,199 --> 00:17:31,380 right that's really helpful to note but 511 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,880 if I'm hearing you correctly then this 512 00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:34,860 is something that even somebody without 513 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,299 theological lenses on like maybe even 514 00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:37,980 somebody without you know from without 515 00:17:36,299 --> 00:17:39,780 Christianity from outside of 516 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:42,120 Christianity rather would still find 517 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:44,760 valuable is that is that a fair 518 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:46,919 interpretation then that's the Hope um I 519 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,020 did go with erdman's so erdman's is a 520 00:17:46,919 --> 00:17:50,400 Christian press and um people probably 521 00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:51,360 know when they pick up an Urban's book 522 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,740 that's going to be written by a 523 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,799 Christian 524 00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:57,660 um but I I would think but um yeah I 525 00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:59,160 wrote it um sort of in dialogue with 526 00:17:57,660 --> 00:18:01,620 those other historians many of whom are 527 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:04,260 Christians but are writing for 528 00:18:01,620 --> 00:18:05,520 um a broader audience and wanting to I 529 00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:07,020 mean that's sort of where that sub title 530 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,380 comes from two is wanting to sort of 531 00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:12,539 show how this theology that scene that 532 00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:15,720 for many people might seem entirely uh 533 00:18:12,539 --> 00:18:18,480 sort of exotic or unfamiliar has had 534 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,700 really important uh effects on American 535 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,260 society and that's a story that 536 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,179 Christians need to hear but that many 537 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:26,280 other people need to hear as well so 538 00:18:24,179 --> 00:18:28,140 yeah so what you were just saying right 539 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,419 there so I I pulled this from the book 540 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:32,460 description on Amazon so forgive me um 541 00:18:30,419 --> 00:18:34,559 but it says it says that 542 00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:36,240 dispensationalism is described as quote 543 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:37,620 and again these may not be your words 544 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,559 but you know what I pulled off Amazon 545 00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:42,780 that it evaluates evangelicalism's most 546 00:18:40,559 --> 00:18:45,059 resilient and contentious popular 547 00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:47,760 theology unquote 548 00:18:45,059 --> 00:18:49,140 um and I was just again the the easy 549 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,640 answer is going to be for you to tell me 550 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:52,020 to to grab the book when it comes out 551 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,280 and explore what that means and stuff 552 00:18:52,020 --> 00:18:54,960 but could you give just like a little 553 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,520 insight into that because I think for a 554 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,960 lot of Christians coming into hearing 555 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,520 something about dispensationalism and I 556 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,380 suspect for a lot of people that will 557 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,820 grab this book and want to want to read 558 00:19:01,380 --> 00:19:04,559 this historical 559 00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:06,360 um account they're already familiar with 560 00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:07,980 dispensational because for many 561 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:09,600 evangelicals especially that's kind of 562 00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:10,919 the water in which you swim right you're 563 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,200 the fish in the water it's all around 564 00:19:10,919 --> 00:19:15,360 and for many evangelicals it was 565 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,220 discovering it even had a name before 566 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,780 even grappling with the theology behind 567 00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:20,580 it so could you walk into that just a 568 00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:22,740 little bit how how did this thing come 569 00:19:20,580 --> 00:19:24,240 to be again I know that's probably a 570 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:25,559 significant portion of your book but 571 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,840 just how this thing came to be the water 572 00:19:25,559 --> 00:19:30,299 in which evangelicals swim 573 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,200 yeah yeah and that is um a big you know 574 00:19:30,299 --> 00:19:33,780 big story 575 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,640 um it grows in popularity uh largely in 576 00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:37,799 the 1870s and 80s and there's a lot of 577 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,799 reasons for that that I won't get into 578 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:44,039 now but uh the the sort of particularly 579 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:45,360 the eschatology this the idea that 580 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:47,280 um there's an there's an imminent 581 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:48,960 Rapture that will soon happen by soon 582 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,419 it's any moment any moment it could 583 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,580 happen that there was then a seven year 584 00:19:51,419 --> 00:19:55,260 tribulation that has a certain 585 00:19:53,580 --> 00:19:57,960 um sort of unfolding and then there is 586 00:19:55,260 --> 00:20:00,240 the the second coming that will lead 587 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,240 into the millennial Kingdom that type of 588 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:06,179 teaching uh really grabs hold in about 589 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,799 150 years ago 120 years ago people like 590 00:20:06,179 --> 00:20:09,419 Dwight Moody who was sort of the Billy 591 00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:10,980 Graham of his era 592 00:20:09,419 --> 00:20:13,440 um adopted this though he probably 593 00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:15,900 didn't uh he was sort of a 594 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,820 um he was a not a theologian we should 595 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:18,900 say so he wouldn't have defined it in 596 00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:20,760 the exactly the same way but he taught 597 00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:23,400 the Rapture in his sermons and and other 598 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:27,120 things and really the that's up to the 599 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:29,700 1910s 1920s Moody dies in 1899. there's 600 00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:31,320 a whole network of round Moody that 601 00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:32,640 really sees 602 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,260 um they wouldn't call themselves 603 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,539 dispensationalists they see this as part 604 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:38,240 of what Evangelical theology is at the 605 00:20:36,539 --> 00:20:40,260 time what conservative 606 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:44,280 bible-believing Evangelical theology is 607 00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:45,480 and um that that becomes even more so in 608 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,160 the 1920s when we have the 609 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,179 fundamentalist modernist split and so 610 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,500 you have all of the sort of 611 00:20:48,179 --> 00:20:53,160 conservatives or fundamentalists 612 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,880 breaking off from their denominations 613 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,260 um and many of those are 614 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,600 dispensationalists but many of them are 615 00:20:55,260 --> 00:20:58,679 not and so people uh when you get all 616 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,299 the conservatives together and they 617 00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:02,280 start sort of hashing out what does it 618 00:21:00,299 --> 00:21:04,559 mean to be a fundamentalist this becomes 619 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,179 a huge point of debate and you can even 620 00:21:04,559 --> 00:21:08,760 see people like Jay aggression Nation 621 00:21:06,179 --> 00:21:11,460 the famous Presbyterian fundamentalist 622 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:14,640 he is concerned about what he calls 623 00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:17,340 chiliism or premillennialism he wasn't 624 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,480 defining it um as precisely as we would 625 00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:20,220 now 626 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,440 um and he said you know we will work 627 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:24,600 with those people even if we have sort 628 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,280 of fundamental disagreements with their 629 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,440 eschatology their sound on these other 630 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,419 things so we're good with them and that 631 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,820 works for a little while but by the 632 00:21:30,419 --> 00:21:34,200 1930s 1940s there is this deep riff 633 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:36,000 that's emerging in the fundamentalist 634 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,320 World between dispensationalists and 635 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,700 covenantalists 636 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,140 um and this is something I think a lot 637 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:41,760 of people take those terms for granted 638 00:21:40,140 --> 00:21:44,580 now and they've been around for a few 639 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,020 Generations but that division would have 640 00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:47,640 made no sense to the original 641 00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:49,200 fundamentalists 642 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,480 um they did not divide themselves along 643 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,820 those particular lines and those lines 644 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,159 come out in the 1930s 1940s each side 645 00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:58,340 builds their own seminaries their own 646 00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:01,860 journals their own publishing houses 647 00:21:58,340 --> 00:22:03,720 that in part are intended to create the 648 00:22:01,860 --> 00:22:06,000 dispensationalists sort of camp and the 649 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,220 reformed or covenantalist Camp within 650 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,380 the broader Evangelical world and these 651 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:12,539 camps I mean they have bigger fish to 652 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:14,159 fry than each other but as you know the 653 00:22:12,539 --> 00:22:15,600 saying that sometimes the bloodiest Wars 654 00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:18,120 or Civil Wars 655 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,980 um there's also a lot of animosity and a 656 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:22,140 lot of sort of question of where's the 657 00:22:19,980 --> 00:22:24,419 fate of evangelicalism going to go and 658 00:22:22,140 --> 00:22:26,039 so I read a lot of then some possibly 659 00:22:24,419 --> 00:22:27,720 familiar history of the later 20th 660 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:30,919 century through that the rise of the Neo 661 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,940 evangelicals who have a particular 662 00:22:30,919 --> 00:22:34,440 non-dismensationalist eschatology if you 663 00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:35,460 look at Carl Henry's famous book The 664 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,780 uneasy conscience of modern 665 00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:38,039 fundamentalism there's a lot of 666 00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:40,500 eschatology in that book that people 667 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:42,179 sort of gloss over and then you can read 668 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:44,580 the rise of the Christian right and and 669 00:22:42,179 --> 00:22:46,380 the rise of dominion Theology and other 670 00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:48,419 things through this lens of sort of 671 00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:50,100 debating about what dispensationalism is 672 00:22:48,419 --> 00:22:52,080 at the same time during this whole 673 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:54,600 period dispensations was very healthy 674 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,400 has its own seminaries many churches are 675 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,600 run by pastors who are 676 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,120 dispensationalists and so there's a 677 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,520 whole subculture I grew up in it that 678 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,720 assumed this was just the way that you 679 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,179 know the proper reading of the Bible 680 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,220 happened it was quite 681 00:23:06,179 --> 00:23:09,799 um you know interesting to learn as I 682 00:23:08,220 --> 00:23:11,820 was growing up that there were other 683 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:13,559 people who were also called themselves 684 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:15,179 bible-believing Christians who did not 685 00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:16,679 think the same things about a lot of 686 00:23:15,179 --> 00:23:18,720 this stuff and that's 687 00:23:16,679 --> 00:23:20,159 um uh that can be you know you can you 688 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,299 can respond to that in different ways I 689 00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:23,940 responded to it by trying to understand 690 00:23:21,299 --> 00:23:27,240 you know why other people would also say 691 00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:29,400 that without sort of taking a definitive 692 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:32,039 side at that at that point 693 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,039 um but I think you know as you get into 694 00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:36,780 the 80s 90s 2000s I think it's harder 695 00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:38,520 and harder if you think about sort of 696 00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:39,659 just some of the pop theological 697 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,240 movements 698 00:23:39,659 --> 00:23:45,120 um the growth of the sort of 699 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,740 neo-reformed movement the growth of the 700 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,960 emerging Church 701 00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:51,000 um or that sort of came and went I guess 702 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,380 um these things are very important to 703 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,539 Evangelical Christianity but aren't 704 00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:56,520 dispensationalists in any way so there's 705 00:23:54,539 --> 00:23:58,080 a lot of Christians out there who would 706 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,400 be conservative and sort of if you're 707 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,960 just going to lump people into big 708 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,940 categories like that are going to be 709 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,400 conservative on a lot of theology but 710 00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:06,299 would differ from dispensationalism and 711 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,760 that to me is some of the most 712 00:24:06,299 --> 00:24:11,159 interesting stuff to explore is how does 713 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,200 that happen and um and ultimately sort 714 00:24:11,159 --> 00:24:14,760 of what are the consequences of that uh 715 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,000 for how we understand the church today 716 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:20,159 so I I wonder and and that was again 717 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,840 very helpful I I wonder just hearing 718 00:24:20,159 --> 00:24:23,580 your walk through and and you know kind 719 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,980 of scanning over the decades and even 720 00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:27,600 centuries here and looking at that 721 00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:29,460 um I wonder how much pushback you've 722 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,780 heard from dispensational circles or 723 00:24:29,460 --> 00:24:33,120 maybe even that you got to interact with 724 00:24:30,780 --> 00:24:35,159 in the book and in the research that 725 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:37,080 would debate especially like a start 726 00:24:35,159 --> 00:24:39,000 that that locates it within John Nelson 727 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,980 Darby and then the reason I'm asking is 728 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,600 because I would come more from a 729 00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:44,640 theological Camp than a history you know 730 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,760 I'm not a trained historian right so so 731 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,960 I have heard defenses of um you know 732 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,059 maybe even tracing roots of 733 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,039 dispensationalism to the Reformation or 734 00:24:51,059 --> 00:24:54,780 maybe even trying to to trace them back 735 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:56,220 to the apostolic times in some form or 736 00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:58,080 fashion but I would say typically what 737 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:59,460 I've encountered in this this is just 738 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,900 subjective but I think typically what 739 00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:03,299 I've encountered have come from within 740 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:05,700 theological circles and from people I 741 00:25:03,299 --> 00:25:06,960 respect but disagree with have you 742 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:08,640 encountered a lot of that pushback 743 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,440 specifically within your approach as a 744 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,480 historian to the material 745 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,299 yeah definitely definitely get the push 746 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,860 back get the sort of quizzical looks and 747 00:25:15,299 --> 00:25:20,220 questions about 748 00:25:16,860 --> 00:25:24,059 um uh about that and part of that is 749 00:25:20,220 --> 00:25:25,860 um uh me sort of going coming critically 750 00:25:24,059 --> 00:25:28,380 to some of the some of the dispensations 751 00:25:25,860 --> 00:25:30,900 own histories of itself and seeing them 752 00:25:28,380 --> 00:25:32,640 sort of as not I frankly just uh not 753 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:34,140 convincing about 754 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,580 um sort of creating these these sort of 755 00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:37,799 histories of who is a dispensationalist 756 00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:40,740 some of them you know quote a very 757 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:43,679 specious uh quote by Augustine to sort 758 00:25:40,740 --> 00:25:45,900 of enlist him as a dispensationalist 759 00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:48,120 um he was a he was a he was sort of a 760 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:49,500 pre-millennialist in his early career he 761 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:51,360 he was not 762 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:53,220 um after that but 763 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:55,440 um uh yes I run into that a lot I mean 764 00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:57,120 part of this is trying to understand a 765 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,640 particular 766 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:01,740 um social or intellectual movement and 767 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,380 seeing how so much of it flows through 768 00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:06,779 the Brethren and the influence it's not 769 00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:09,600 so one thing I would say to to sort of 770 00:26:06,779 --> 00:26:10,919 throw a bone to the uh dispensations I 771 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,860 don't try to explain everything John 772 00:26:10,919 --> 00:26:15,419 Nelson Darby he uh he is definitely an 773 00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:17,159 important person because he led a 774 00:26:15,419 --> 00:26:19,500 movement but there are many people 775 00:26:17,159 --> 00:26:22,559 around RB that become sort of household 776 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:25,740 names in American circles that are 777 00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:27,360 probably as important uh as as Darby two 778 00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:30,900 of them would be William Kelly who was 779 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:33,299 Darby's uh sort of uh editor 780 00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:34,919 um and a very strong Theologian in his 781 00:26:33,299 --> 00:26:37,919 own right he's another Brethren and then 782 00:26:34,919 --> 00:26:40,260 a guy named CH McIntosh who uh was a 783 00:26:37,919 --> 00:26:41,400 more of a a popular writer Darby is not 784 00:26:40,260 --> 00:26:43,020 a fun person to read I don't know if 785 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,120 anyone in your audience has read Darby 786 00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:48,240 he is he is very difficult he never 787 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:50,640 redrafted anything so um you get you get 788 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,279 the first version of everything 789 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,380 um he also has you know 19 million words 790 00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:57,480 in print which is just unbelievable to 791 00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:59,100 think about how many words that is and 792 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,919 um so he was very prodigious but he was 793 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:03,120 not clear and he admitted this um uh 794 00:27:01,919 --> 00:27:05,340 often and he said I rely on people 795 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:07,740 around me to sort of simplify what I'm 796 00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:09,360 writing but Macintosh was more of a 797 00:27:07,740 --> 00:27:10,860 devotional writer he he wrote 798 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,720 commentaries 799 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:13,740 um but also sort of popular stuff he was 800 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,020 probably much more important to 801 00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:18,240 spreading some of the core ideas of what 802 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:20,820 became dispensationalism then was Darby 803 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,640 but I think it's very hard to 804 00:27:20,820 --> 00:27:26,220 um sort of tell the story of of sort of 805 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,500 intellectual influence or institutional 806 00:27:26,220 --> 00:27:30,900 uh continuity 807 00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:32,340 um much earlier than the 1830s I don't 808 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:34,740 know who I mean you can look to other 809 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:36,000 pre-millennialist movements 810 00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:37,620 um but they're not going to be teaching 811 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,600 anything close to what becomes 812 00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:42,539 dispensationalism at least how I read it 813 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,179 so I I also don't I mean this is where I 814 00:27:42,539 --> 00:27:47,100 try to be humble on my own commitments I 815 00:27:45,179 --> 00:27:49,500 also don't think 816 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:51,120 um I don't think many Protestants I mean 817 00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:52,860 this is a Protestant issue in a lot of 818 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,320 ways like all of us have to sort of find 819 00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:57,360 a a sort of provenance for what we're 820 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:00,419 for what we believe is is sort of the 821 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:01,620 Orthodox historic Christian faith and I 822 00:28:00,419 --> 00:28:02,880 don't know if anyone has a corner on 823 00:28:01,620 --> 00:28:04,500 that I think there's debates that you 824 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,419 can have about a lot of different views 825 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:08,760 and scripture sort of theological views 826 00:28:06,419 --> 00:28:11,700 and exactly when did they come about I 827 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,740 think I would go with um to sort of not 828 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,220 to sort of not judge anyone I go with 829 00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:16,620 actually with something 830 00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,940 dispensationalists often have said which 831 00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:20,220 is just because something comes about 832 00:28:17,940 --> 00:28:23,100 later does not make it false necessarily 833 00:28:20,220 --> 00:28:24,720 and um I don't I did not try to go in 834 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:26,760 that's been one version of sort of hit 835 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,620 pieces on dispensationalism is to try to 836 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,580 say oh this is so recent how could it be 837 00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:31,020 true 838 00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:32,700 um how could you know how could 839 00:28:31,020 --> 00:28:33,840 something that is less than 200 years 840 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,419 old 841 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,220 um be sort of the true way I'm agnostic 842 00:28:36,419 --> 00:28:39,840 on that point I do think there are 843 00:28:38,220 --> 00:28:41,940 issues and I bring them up 844 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,679 um through the sources there's pretty 845 00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:45,779 strong critiques of some of the Theology 846 00:28:43,679 --> 00:28:47,760 of dispensationalism and sort of does 847 00:28:45,779 --> 00:28:49,980 that actually reflect the biblical text 848 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,600 or does it really hold together 849 00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:53,100 um but ultimately on the historical 850 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080 question 851 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:57,659 um I do you know I do ultimately rooted 852 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,400 in in the 1830s 1820s 853 00:28:57,659 --> 00:29:01,980 um but I don't see that as necessarily A 854 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,539 disqualifier for its validity either no 855 00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:04,860 that's super helpful yeah no that's 856 00:29:03,539 --> 00:29:07,140 super helpful and I think that is a 857 00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:09,179 pushback that most of us have heard 858 00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:10,919 um with dispensationalism is is the 859 00:29:09,179 --> 00:29:13,400 primary critique oftentimes times being 860 00:29:10,919 --> 00:29:16,320 leveled at its kind of historical 861 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,580 newness let me ask you one question 862 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,980 because I do want to be respectful of 863 00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:21,179 your time but one question and and you 864 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:22,860 addressed it at the beginning so I think 865 00:29:21,179 --> 00:29:25,080 it'd be good to address this toward the 866 00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:26,580 end as well is uh when you speak about 867 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,559 the rise and the fall and I know you 868 00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:30,299 kind of nuanced that phrase fall but 869 00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,580 what is your take just kind of in a 870 00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:34,380 nutshell on the current state and 871 00:29:32,580 --> 00:29:36,059 trajectory of dispensationalism 872 00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:38,940 specifically within within the United 873 00:29:36,059 --> 00:29:41,760 States where we are yeah yeah and that's 874 00:29:38,940 --> 00:29:42,659 where I think fall is is a good metaphor 875 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,940 for me 876 00:29:42,659 --> 00:29:46,380 um so I would say 877 00:29:44,940 --> 00:29:48,960 um there was sort of a high point of 878 00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:50,039 dispensationalism and its influence in 879 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,520 we can call it just American 880 00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:55,440 evangelicalism right around 1960 to 1970 881 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,919 like that decade was pretty good you had 882 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:01,140 a very preeminent crop of Scholars John 883 00:29:58,919 --> 00:30:04,919 wildler Charles ryrie Dwight Pentecost 884 00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:07,799 others at Dallas others Alva McLean at 885 00:30:04,919 --> 00:30:11,580 graves Seminary writing very important 886 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:15,539 big books and and really training a ton 887 00:30:11,580 --> 00:30:18,480 of of pastors and others to carry on the 888 00:30:15,539 --> 00:30:21,059 tradition I think since then it's been a 889 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:24,179 pretty steady story of academic decline 890 00:30:21,059 --> 00:30:27,059 there's very few seminaries that teach 891 00:30:24,179 --> 00:30:29,340 classic dispensationalism in their 892 00:30:27,059 --> 00:30:31,559 curriculum there are some they are they 893 00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:32,640 tend to be less well resourced and not 894 00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:35,279 you know what's considered like the 895 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,159 mainstream of Evangelical uh seminaries 896 00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:39,840 even Dallas Seminary I mean they they do 897 00:30:38,159 --> 00:30:41,940 have some classic dispensations they're 898 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,220 also the the sort of origin point of 899 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:45,899 progressive dispensationalism which is a 900 00:30:44,220 --> 00:30:47,460 later development in the 80s and 90s 901 00:30:45,899 --> 00:30:49,200 that 902 00:30:47,460 --> 00:30:51,480 um is still dispensations in some ways 903 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,520 in other ways it is quite different from 904 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,080 what came before and you see this 905 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,059 because those people I mentioned like 906 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,440 Riri and walvard were very concerned 907 00:30:57,059 --> 00:31:00,600 when Progressive dispensationalism 908 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,740 emerged and they actually said you 909 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,360 shouldn't call this dispensationalism 910 00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:04,860 it's it's too different and it's 911 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,480 different on on certain technical things 912 00:31:04,860 --> 00:31:08,760 it's also different on sort of blurring 913 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,620 the dualism that I said was sort of at 914 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,179 the heart of a lot of this 915 00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:14,399 um and so you know part of the Fall is 916 00:31:12,179 --> 00:31:16,440 that I don't know I mean they're out 917 00:31:14,399 --> 00:31:18,539 there but I don't know many sort of um 918 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,360 distinguished Scholars under the age of 919 00:31:18,539 --> 00:31:22,559 50 who are dispensationalists and that's 920 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,419 a very worrying sign if you're just 921 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:25,860 looking at like a social movement you 922 00:31:24,419 --> 00:31:27,360 really need to be producing you know 923 00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:29,820 young scholars who are looking to 924 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,320 advance that school of thought 925 00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:33,299 um there just aren't that many if you 926 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,620 just you know surveyed 927 00:31:33,299 --> 00:31:35,820 um all of the Southern Baptist 928 00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:37,440 seminaries and all of the sort of 929 00:31:35,820 --> 00:31:39,480 non-denomination Evangelical seminaries 930 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,399 you find very few Die Hard 931 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,440 dispensationalists 932 00:31:41,399 --> 00:31:46,020 um where you would find them is in the 933 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,840 popular culture Arena which I know for 934 00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:49,980 many sort of um Bible reading 935 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,779 dissensationalists are people who 936 00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:54,179 shouldn't even be associated with them 937 00:31:51,779 --> 00:31:56,340 but they are sort of uh in some ways 938 00:31:54,179 --> 00:31:57,240 representing the name in in more ways 939 00:31:56,340 --> 00:31:59,159 than 940 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,080 um and then those than any Scholars 941 00:31:59,159 --> 00:32:03,059 would be and there there's still a very 942 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,740 vibrant dispensationalist sort of Pop 943 00:32:03,059 --> 00:32:06,600 Culture industry 944 00:32:04,740 --> 00:32:08,279 um there are books that come out uh 945 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,539 every year every month probably there 946 00:32:08,279 --> 00:32:12,240 are moves I think there's another left 947 00:32:09,539 --> 00:32:14,399 behind by the way uh coming out soon to 948 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,919 a theater near you probably 949 00:32:14,399 --> 00:32:20,399 um and I mean that'll be like the you 950 00:32:16,919 --> 00:32:22,320 know the third movie version of that um 951 00:32:20,399 --> 00:32:24,360 of that IP 952 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:27,120 um and so there is some popularity there 953 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,980 and there are definitely uh sort of lay 954 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,299 level 955 00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:31,440 devotionals and commentaries and other 956 00:32:30,299 --> 00:32:33,840 things 957 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,600 um but uh many of them are are for older 958 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,860 people frankly and many of them are 959 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,720 written by people who aren't 960 00:32:37,860 --> 00:32:41,340 credentialed in the way that you'd hope 961 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,899 a lot of the theology is written by 962 00:32:41,340 --> 00:32:45,059 people who are really deep into the 963 00:32:42,899 --> 00:32:47,039 literature and other things so the fall 964 00:32:45,059 --> 00:32:49,140 there I I look at the fall in part just 965 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:51,779 in in that way and another way is that I 966 00:32:49,140 --> 00:32:53,760 think for a lot of the for sort of the 967 00:32:51,779 --> 00:32:55,740 fathers of dispensationalism going all 968 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,820 the way back to Darby and Scofield and 969 00:32:55,740 --> 00:32:58,260 others I think they'd be quite 970 00:32:56,820 --> 00:33:00,000 disappointed with the fate of 971 00:32:58,260 --> 00:33:01,740 dispensationalism as this sort of 972 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,419 popular theology 973 00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:05,640 um and one that is really reduced in a 974 00:33:03,419 --> 00:33:08,520 lot of ways to its end time scenario and 975 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,500 is not sort of a full-blown system of 976 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,360 theology which is at its best uh 977 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:16,140 dispensationalism had something to say 978 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:18,000 about almost every part of theology but 979 00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:19,980 but over and I tell the story in this in 980 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,440 the sort of the last third of the book 981 00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:25,080 over the last 50 years or so it's really 982 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,700 been thinned out by its popularizers and 983 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,559 it's it's it's sort of scholarly 984 00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:32,039 apparatus has really declined as well 985 00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:33,899 okay now that's super helpful well thank 986 00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:35,700 you again for uh jumping on here um 987 00:33:33,899 --> 00:33:37,200 again the books title and I'm going to 988 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:39,120 read it to make sure I get it correct 989 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,159 the rise and fall of dispensationalism 990 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,980 how the Evangelical battle over the end 991 00:33:41,159 --> 00:33:46,500 times shaped a nation May of 23 if I'm 992 00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:49,140 reading it correctly Star Wars Day May 993 00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:51,179 4th Star Wars day man I hope you 994 00:33:49,140 --> 00:33:52,440 selected that date on purpose I did I 995 00:33:51,179 --> 00:33:54,659 did not but I'm I'm thinking about the 996 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,580 Death Star and apocalypse and seeing if 997 00:33:54,659 --> 00:33:59,039 something can can come from that so 998 00:33:56,580 --> 00:34:00,419 that's fast that's fantastic Dr Daniel 999 00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:02,399 Hummel thank you so much for joining us 1000 00:34:00,419 --> 00:34:04,500 I appreciate your time sir it's been a 1001 00:34:02,399 --> 00:34:07,020 pleasure all right 1002 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:16,839 foreign 1003 00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:16,839 [Music]